Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

klham's Avatar


klham
12.03.2012 , 12:40 AM | #401
^ lol. I know, they made it look so great, didn't they.

Right now I'm grinding WZ comms to finish off my WH set for when 1.6 comes out, and it's just a miserable experience. I don't know why I'm putting myself through it. The last few Huttball matches really made me miss Storm & Harpoon on my Vanguard (to say nothing of Hold the Line...). At least those are interesting utilities that can be used in a dozen different ways to make WZs entertaining for the player behind the 'toon. There's no clever tricks commandos can play that compare to that (sry devs but pillar humping doesn't count as a clever trick - that's just what everyone does). Pulling someone into the fire pit never gets old when you're the one doing it....same thing with popping out of stealth and totally flooring someone, like assassins and Ops do all the time). In addition to all the other improvements that have been discussed, it would be nice to have one really cool gimmick we can pop that gives us that gotcha moment that every other class gets to enjoy.

There's just a complete lack of imagination in how this AC was designed. It was obviously an after-thought when compared to the other ACs. Great storyline & look though - that's what took me in. I love everything about the class right down to the voice acting, but boy does it ever need work to be viable in high-level PvP.

DaltarSpitfire's Avatar


DaltarSpitfire
12.03.2012 , 03:21 AM | #402
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The Problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better:
this is the only part i wanted to comment on...or question...
I'm a Arsenal Merc...i PVP as such. i lack helm and gloves of Warhero. however all my gear is Augmented with Advanced Reflex 22s. i run over 1800 Aim, 35/75 crit/surge 100% acc. 110% tech acc. blah blah. the normal damage range for my attacks against any other class are something like this.
Rapid shots = 600 dmg total. (any shielding between 10-25 dmg per hit. so 150 damage tops.)
Missle blast = when used 1100 dmg.(if shielded in any way less than 700.)
Explosive Dart = 800 Dmg. (any shielding around 400)
Tracer Missle = 2200 normal hit, (shielded 1200-1700), Crits are around 2800(a crit vs a shield is around 2400)
HSM w/o tracer 3k, (shields 1200) Crits 4.5k-5.6k (shields 3k)
HSM W/ Tracer 2k (shields 1600) Crits around 3.8k (shields 3.8k)
Fusion Missile 1600 (shields 1100) Doesn't really crit.
Rocket Punch 2k (shields 2k) doesn't crit
Railshot 2k normal 3.4k crit (shields 1800)
Jet Boost (currently doesn't work...when i use it i get knocked back 40 meters..instead of my oponent)
thats all that i use if i use it in pvp.

I avg 300k damage per warzone. i run at least 6 per day...5 days a week. most of the pubs i play avg 450k dmg per wz. if its an elite team we're talking 600k each. so why again do we not need a damage boost? screw more run away abilitys. i'm tried of hitting folks in equal gear for half of what they smack me for. every Sent, Guard, Van, shadow worth his salt can smack me back to back 3 times for over 4k damage. thats less than 6 seconds of combat. not counting their Dots. i got nothing that can compare to that.

now if i'm doing something wrong..(aside from using a merc in pvp) please by all means. let me know. i want to be the most useful pvper i can be while playing a class i enjoy. because its the only reason i play this game.
Through Fire, Wind and Rain, I've Stood my Ground, For Ages Untold I Stood Alone, Ere The Sun Shone, When This World Was Dark and Cold, I Stood Alone, The Earth Turns, The Wind Fades, And Rain Falls, Yet Still I Stand Alone. I am Spitfire Falcon, Last of My Clan, Dark Lord of Naritus.

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
12.03.2012 , 06:50 AM | #403
Quote: Originally Posted by Lord_Karsk View Post
1 bioware "pvp team" is clueless

2 when they finally get aroung to playing the class the developers maybe then they can understand what
we are trying to say(if they can stop playing their imp mains that is)

3 did i mention they are clueless ? every patch sinse 1.1 have proven this bigtime.
I couldn't agree with you more. Ever since the days of Mercs/Commandos TM/GR spam they have consistently nerfed the hell out of this class. Basically its PT or be a Healer cause other than mediocre dps we really have nothing to offer a pvp group. There is a reason why most pvp matches have more melee and sorcs than any other class. Fotm sucks. If they'd just balance the classes and stop letting pve an pvp changes affect each other most of the complaining on the forums would stop. (I said most not all....)

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
12.03.2012 , 06:58 AM | #404
Quote: Originally Posted by klham View Post
Overall damage is fine if allowed to freecast for an extended period of time, but I disagree regarding burst. Gunnery has steady damage if uninterrupted, but any "burst" is back-loaded on the rotation and highly dependent on optimal conditions (which is a big disadvantage in PvP where TTK is very short and you're unlikely to get a full rotation off due to unavoidable target-switching and constant interrupts/stuns/mezs/KBs etc. It certainly doesn't have enough burst to burn down a decent healer the way real burst-dps spec'd ACs do (perhaps that would be different if the AC had more tools to pre-empt self-heals, like the stealth-stun-burst ACs do). Commando burst is a little better on Assault, but I disagree with ppl who say that respec'ing to Assault spec makes Commandos equally desirable in PvP as other dps-spec'd ACs, despite an Assault -spec'd Commando's improved mobility over the other dps tree.
I lol'd at the part where you said 'extended amount of time'. With how utterly crappy the resolve system is in this game and the chance of chain stun + stun lock there is no extended amount of time. When getting chased around by melee at best all we have is rapid shots and maybe one insta power shot unless power surge is used with a heal move. Yeah sure there is rail shot but after using it you gotta wait 8+ seconds to use it again which mean more running. Jet boost is rather pointless since melee can just straight back to you and pyro mercs dont even have the luxary of a root with their rocket punch. For the most 'mobile class' we have the least amount of counters and even less ways to stay mobile. Basically if you get focused by a melee and there isnt a healer watching you then you are as good as dead. Bioware hasnt got a flippin clue what goes on in pvp anymore.

They are too busy pumping out new flashy cosmetics and over priced addons to actually take a look at the most popular aspect of the game. Basically it was their last ditch effort to get money out of us before this game totally tanks.

Thanks again bioware for ruining yet another game that had great potential. Cant wait to see your whole company bankrupt!

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
12.03.2012 , 07:07 AM | #405
Quote: Originally Posted by Macroeconomics View Post
The problems with this subclass in PvP are very deep rooted. Escapability? Yes. Difficulty outputting dps when pressured? Yes. But even in the ideal scenario when you can free cast, this class is a FAIL. If you compare damage output from a Merc dps to those of the top dps subclasses in a statis Voidstar match where no one is dying and both sides can focus on dps output for a full 15 minutes, the Merc dps is at about 50% below that of Sage and Guardian Focus. And about 25% below that Sent Focus. It (Merc dps) is not competitive even in the conditions that best favor it. Take all that talk about subclasses being within 5% of each other and throw it out the window. That 5% garbage is based on meta averages. It has no factual basis in how top players play their toons using best practices. No Merc dps will ever be outputting 1.5 million in damage with the current status of the game, but the top dps classes can do that.

But BW is extremely reluctant to directly buff Merc damage output because Merc dps is already extremely good in PvE. Buffs to accuracy and buffs to removing movement restrictions are logical ways to buff Merc dps in PvP without overpowering them for PvE. The other logical step? Return DFA to its prior, wider damage radius. That step however would be a very direct admission from BW that they fundamentally misunderstood how PvP balance works in this game. What are the odds of that?
Best thing I've read in 40 plus pages. The bottom line is Bioware doesn't know how to keep the changes separate. It has been 6 months and they still cannot figure out how to keep pvp and pve nerfs/buffs separate. Not only that but if they ever did successfully make a change subsequently something else somewhere in the game would break and then they'd have to spend several more hours with an emergency maintenance trying to fix it.

At this point a group of chimps banging on keyboards could probably do better maintenance on this game than the current staff now charged with trying to keep this fail game afloat.

Asukaa's Avatar


Asukaa
12.03.2012 , 11:49 AM | #406
Quote: Originally Posted by OldRepublicRevan View Post
Best thing I've read in 40 plus pages. The bottom line is Bioware doesn't know how to keep the changes separate. It has been 6 months and they still cannot figure out how to keep pvp and pve nerfs/buffs separate. Not only that but if they ever did successfully make a change subsequently something else somewhere in the game would break and then they'd have to spend several more hours with an emergency maintenance trying to fix it.

At this point a group of chimps banging on keyboards could probably do better maintenance on this game than the current staff now charged with trying to keep this fail game afloat.
Have you played WOW lately? The have the best of the best Devs working on that game. Their in-house staff is top notch. Yet the PVP is worse than SWTOR. You think the stuns are bad here? Go play WOW. If you're not playing a broken class then gg to you. You'll provide nothing to the BG. You'll be consta CC'ed the entire match. I had my warrior with close the the best gear pvp gear attainable. It was the only dps class that could free itself from all CC for a good 5 seconds. The community QQ'ed so bad that it got them nerfed so I quit after this last patch.

SWTOR is the only game where I can take a bottom of the barrel class in solo queue pvp and still do extremely well if I play the class correctly (even if people say I'm wasting my talent with a subpar class, it's still more fun than any of the other dps classes, to me anyway).

Also, Remember that BW has a pretty non-existent dev team. A lot of their folks got laid-off or quit. And it's not easy to buff/nerf pvp without effecting pve. Even the Blizz devs have trouble with that and always have.
25 minute Assault Commando pvp video: http://youtu.be/7wM0QXWBwoE
Duck'bumps (Assault Commando) vs Silch (Focus Guardian) all 5 Rounds (Silch POV): http://youtu.be/R_S_DQKOvd8

Mazikeen's Avatar


Mazikeen
12.03.2012 , 12:28 PM | #407
Quote: Originally Posted by OldRepublicRevan View Post
The bottom line is Bioware doesn't know how to keep the changes separate. It has been 6 months and they still cannot figure out how to keep pvp and pve nerfs/buffs separate.
I actually emailed Allison directly on this, offering a very reasonable, proven solution to this problem that will fix the whole PvE/PvP balance thing permanently. The drawback, however, is it will require a significant time investment to properly implement so I have little faith it will be done.
"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

Mazikeen's Avatar


Mazikeen
12.03.2012 , 12:31 PM | #408
Quote: Originally Posted by Asukaa View Post
And it's not easy to buff/nerf pvp without effecting pve. Even the Blizz devs have trouble with that and always have.
Yes, it is. It's actually one of the easier types of balancing out there. I offered the same solution to Blizzard (via their forums) that I emailed Allison on today, but it would have been too simple for them to implement it. They gotta make things difficult, you know.
"Someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back!" - Malcolm Reynolds

OldRepublicRevan's Avatar


OldRepublicRevan
12.03.2012 , 12:33 PM | #409
Quote: Originally Posted by Asukaa View Post
Have you played WOW lately? The have the best of the best Devs working on that game. Their in-house staff is top notch. Yet the PVP is worse than SWTOR. You think the stuns are bad here? Go play WOW. If you're not playing a broken class then gg to you. You'll provide nothing to the BG. You'll be consta CC'ed the entire match. I had my warrior with close the the best gear pvp gear attainable. It was the only dps class that could free itself from all CC for a good 5 seconds. The community QQ'ed so bad that it got them nerfed so I quit after this last patch.

SWTOR is the only game where I can take a bottom of the barrel class in solo queue pvp and still do extremely well if I play the class correctly (even if people say I'm wasting my talent with a subpar class, it's still more fun than any of the other dps classes, to me anyway).

Also, Remember that BW has a pretty non-existent dev team. A lot of their folks got laid-off or quit. And it's not easy to buff/nerf pvp without effecting pve. Even the Blizz devs have trouble with that and always have.
Even played correctly you still can't keep up with the melee classes. You talk as tho it is the players fault that the Merc/Commando class sucks but we all know (and by all I mean the ones who ended up making one as their main) that they are below average now since all the other classes have been buffed once or twice while we have been constantly nerfed. Don't try and give me a line and make it sound like you are doing any better than the rest of us.

If infact you do so well why not videotape yourself playing and post a video for us to see.

We all know they don't exist. Bioware had to fire most of them to go try and make some money elsewhere.

Asukaa's Avatar


Asukaa
12.03.2012 , 12:45 PM | #410
Quote: Originally Posted by OldRepublicRevan View Post
Even played correctly you still can't keep up with the melee classes. You talk as tho it is the players fault that the Merc/Commando class sucks but we all know (and by all I mean the ones who ended up making one as their main) that they are below average now since all the other classes have been buffed once or twice while we have been constantly nerfed. Don't try and give me a line and make it sound like you are doing any better than the rest of us.

If infact you do so well why not videotape yourself playing and post a video for us to see.

We all know they don't exist. Bioware had to fire most of them to go try and make some money elsewhere.
Rofl, read sigs much? There in my sig is my 25 minute vid of me destroying melee and most other classes on my Commando.

I know the class is sub par. I never said it wasn't.

The only classes I cannot beat 1v1 are Assault/Pyro Vanguard/Powertech, Shadow/Assassin, Combat/Rage Sent/Mara. The rest are situational with proper LOS.
25 minute Assault Commando pvp video: http://youtu.be/7wM0QXWBwoE
Duck'bumps (Assault Commando) vs Silch (Focus Guardian) all 5 Rounds (Silch POV): http://youtu.be/R_S_DQKOvd8