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Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.01.2012 , 01:25 PM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
If Kun has an unlimited supply of war beasts, hordes and hordes of Krath, tons of Massasi and fighters that can take out dreadnaughts, why was defeated by the Republic?
I think Kun's skill of Sith alchemy had not been that powerful when he was alive, sure he could create tons of beasts if he had time, but Ulic's betrayal didn't give him that much time.

Selenial's Avatar


Selenial
12.01.2012 , 01:30 PM | #122
Ok, Here it is.

Start at about 3 minutes, from there on out it explains that,
-The republic, with Qel Droma drove Kun back to Yavin 4
- Kun sacrifised his entire army to keep his spirit alive, from what i can tell in this video the ritual reminds me of the ritual Vitiate undertook to give himself a massivly prolonged life and a larger wealth of power.
-The Jedi, Noticing this ritual beginning chose to trap Kuns spirit inside the temples on Yavin 4, knowing they could not stop it any other way...

Its quite a simple explanation in the video but i find it effective enough at summarising the events.
The Mandalorian Wars were a series of massacres that masked another war, a war of conversion. Culminating in a final atrocity that no Jedi could walk away from… save one.
Zarys Sorcerer Cathinka Seeliara Sage
Force In Balance - The Harbinger

mefit's Avatar


mefit
12.01.2012 , 01:43 PM | #123
I would love for the Mandalorians to win this , I just do not see it happening . Maybe by from Space but that does not really seem what they would do over and over .

Mandalorians remind me of a mix breed of Predators(from the movie with same name) and Klingons , they all seem to strive for a good front line battle story or honor of .................

Where is Sithlords are known to destroy all that is in their path and the more powerful they become the more they destroy . Fear is what they live for and they will do anything to gain it and go to those extremes rarely anyone is willing to go.
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.01.2012 , 02:57 PM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
If Kun has an unlimited supply of war beasts, hordes and hordes of Krath, tons of Massasi and fighters that can take out dreadnaughts, why was defeated by the Republic?
A series of setbacks, one was the fact that the entire flank the Mandalorians were covering was blown wide open when the Mandalorians got surrounded and Mandalore died, which kicked them out of the war, letting the Republic cut off major lines to deep Sith territory.

Then Ulic made his assault on Coruscant and lost badly, due to having no reinforcements and then during the Ossus campaign, he himself lost his will to fight after killing his brother, this left the Krath mindless, when this happened a few political power plays destroyed Krath infrastructure, and was easy for the Republic to exploit.

Even then not all hope was lost for the brotherhood of the sith, a lot of remnants had joined Exar Kun and he basically started from scratch, but then Ulic led the entire Jedi Order to his frontdoor, knowing he wouldn't be able to solo that many, Massassi warriors or not, he used a ritual to cheat death and outsmarted them, then the order used a Wall of Light and trapped him there.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.01.2012 , 03:01 PM | #125
I have seen the video. But I still think it was foolish on Kun's part to leave Yavin 4 undefended. If he had had a sizable fleet orbiting the planet the Republic forces would either have been destroyed, or stalled long enough to help Kun escape. In fact, Kun didn't seem to display any form of competent leadership or skill in military strategy during entire war (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent most of his time delving into the secrets of the dark side and creating his Brotherhood while Ulic, Mandalore and the Keto rampaged across the galaxy... How competent a tactician actually was he?

Basically, who's to say that a 'series of setbacks' won't result in MtU victory? Without his commanders he seems fairly weak (as a leader)

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
12.01.2012 , 03:15 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I have seen the video. But I still think it was foolish on Kun's part to leave Yavin 4 undefended. If he had had a sizable fleet orbiting the planet the Republic forces would either have been destroyed, or stalled long enough to help Kun escape. In fact, Kun didn't seem to display any form of competent leadership or skill in military strategy during entire war (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent most of his time delving into the secrets of the dark side and creating his Brotherhood while Ulic, Mandalore and the Keto rampaged across the galaxy... How competent a tactician actually was he?

Basically, who's to say that a 'series of setbacks' won't result in MtU victory? Without his commanders he seems fairly weak (as a leader)
He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.

Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.

The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.

Slowpokeking's Avatar


Slowpokeking
12.01.2012 , 03:22 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I have seen the video. But I still think it was foolish on Kun's part to leave Yavin 4 undefended. If he had had a sizable fleet orbiting the planet the Republic forces would either have been destroyed, or stalled long enough to help Kun escape. In fact, Kun didn't seem to display any form of competent leadership or skill in military strategy during entire war (correct me if I'm wrong). He spent most of his time delving into the secrets of the dark side and creating his Brotherhood while Ulic, Mandalore and the Keto rampaged across the galaxy... How competent a tactician actually was he?

Basically, who's to say that a 'series of setbacks' won't result in MtU victory? Without his commanders he seems fairly weak (as a leader)
He thought the republic was not going to find him, so he sent many forces to attack.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
12.01.2012 , 03:37 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.
But here in lies the problem, from my knowledge of the Great Sith War, he didn't. The only battle Exar Kun led was the invasion of Ossus. The Krath Holy Crusades began before Kun was seduced to the dark side and were led by the Keto's. Then Kun goes to Cinnagar to confront Keto and Ulic alone. Not a battle here, a duel. The Dark Reaper Campaign was led by Ulic after this. Then Kun went to Ossus personally and killed Odun-Durr - again this was a duel not a battle. It was Ulic who subjugated the Mandalorians, which began the Mandalorian Crusdades led by Mandalore. Ulic invaded Coruscant, then Kun comes along and kills his Master. Again a duel. And then finally Kun takes up the reigns and invade Ossus. After that he retreats back to Yavin 4, leaving command to Ulic once more - who betrays him and has him defeated. Kun spends all his time searching for the secrets of Freedon Nadd, tracking down and dueling people, and then establishing his brotherhood. The way I see it, he was the Vitiate of the Great Sith War - hiding away in his fortress while his minions waged war which he wasn't even concerned about, it was obvious all Kun wanted was power in the dark side.
Quote:
Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.
Again I'm unsure. The Krath were a secret society who conquered one system. How could they possibly have so many warriors? And why did they retreat to Teta and hope their presence would go unnoticed, when they supposedly had billions of warriors under their banner?

Quote:
The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.
This is the only evidence that the Krath had numbers, and don't forget the Mandalorians were just as fanatic.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
12.01.2012 , 04:34 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
He led fanatical crusades of carnage all over the galaxy, it worked, very well, he had trashed the Republic so badly that even by the Mandalorian Wars they were not eager to fight again, that is how much carnage his forces sowed, the military still hadn't regained it's strength and as I said earlier, his acolytes would become his generals, leading their own pieces of the puzzle and guiding the chaotic crusade, Exar Kun would be the overlord, as well as the 'factory' if you will, along with the Krath war factories and space stations.

Mandalore does not have as many men as you think, IIRC, he had seven million Neo-Crusaders before the Revanchists got involved. Compare that to the billions that the Krath can conscript, the half a million Massassi and then swell their numbers with War Beasts and droids, then the chaos fighters that can heavily damage Mandalorian strongholds and tough defensive placements and you have an army that is almost unstoppable, yes they will be easily killed, but with such a large manpool, they fanatics aren't going to care, least of all their overlords.

The Republic had an entire quarter of it's infrastructure wiped out by Kun, Mandalore's space is far far smaller than the Republic's, it would take a month or three depending on how well the Mandalorians can hold out, but seriously, Kun has a big fleet, an enormous force and the best advantage you can have in war: fanaticism, so much so that death doesn't mean anything to his troops.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but where do you get all these precise numbers like 7 million?

Maaruin's Avatar


Maaruin
12.01.2012 , 05:14 PM | #130
Normally, I would say Exar Kun would win. But the rules put him on a disadvantage (he can't use Ulic and he can't blow up Star Systems). In the end, I think he would still win, though. He would use his Forces as a distraction to sneak up to Mandalore. Then he would kill him and declare himself Mandalore or something similar.

However, I think I imagine a Kaggath very different from you. Personally, I would modify the rules for Kaggaths a little, so they fit more the Kaggath style we see in the game:

Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
[*]The arena: the known galaxy.
Normally, the challanger chooses the battleground. And this would make things really interesting and also easier to imagine. For example, this Kaggath set on Coruscant would look quite different to it set on Yavin IV. It doesn't have to be one planet, it could be a star system or several specific planets + moons + space stations.

Quote:
[*]No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Ulic Qel-Droma, Aleema Keto, Cassus Fett, Canderous Ordo.
But allies, if they aren't superiors, are part of the power base. I mean, the Sith Inquisitor gets three Moffs as allies who help him in the Kaggath and especially Moff Pyron is important. So in this case, I would include all the people you mentioned in the power bases.

Quote:
[*]No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
Again, in the SI Kaggath the Republic played an important rule as common enemy. I think that would make things more interesting too.

Quote:
[*]No surrender, fight to the death!
OK, I'm not sure if this is a rule of the real Kaggath. As far as I know the Kaggath is also a battle of prestige, so if the power base of one opponent defects to the other, because he shows superior, wouldn't he win the Kaggath even if the other one flees.

Quote:
[*]No superweapons.
I would drop that rule, superweapons played their parts in some Kaggaths, remember the Silencer.

Quote:
[*]Technology level is universal: blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power.[*]Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.
Well, I like these two rules as they are.

I really like this series, but I think some rule changes in these directions would make it more like a real Kaggath (instead of a simple war between two power bases.)


You also asked for suggestions. So here are mine:
  • Jedi Consular vs Sith Inquisitor
  • Master Oteg (his Fleet + the Strike Team) vs Master Kenobi (his Forces on Utapau)... in general, two good characters against each other
  • Queen Talia of Onderon vs Queen Amidala of Naboo
"I was one of many. We were servants of the dark side… Sith Lords, we called ourselves. So proud. In the end we were not so proud. We hid… hid from those we had betrayed. We fell… and I knew it would be so."
-Ajunta Pall