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Who was Justified in the Star Wars Movies?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Who was Justified in the Star Wars Movies?

DarthVarrak's Avatar


DarthVarrak
12.18.2011 , 11:23 PM | #21
I have always seen the Jedi as the true bad guys. Wanting us to push down our emotions all the time, basically turn us into droids with flesh.

The Sith is where it's at, embrace your emotions, they are what makes you human (or humanoid sentient species), what makes us strong in times of struggle. Mothers with children in danger can do extraordinary things because of emotion, like lift a car. If those mothers were Jedi their children would die. Actually they wouldn't even have been born cause Jedi aren't supposed to have children.
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CorpseCreeper's Avatar


CorpseCreeper
12.19.2011 , 02:36 AM | #22
Not only that but by destroying the deathstar they murdered thousends of inocent workers.... Yeah Empire has a assH*le as a leader but why kill the many when all u gatta do is kill 1 guy...

And its not like palpatine is ever going to be strong enough to zap the life out of planets...
The Jedi are mass murderers of innocent lives...

Empirarte's Avatar


Empirarte
12.19.2011 , 12:58 PM | #23
By the way, it is alright to transition into a Jedi vs. Sith debate because they are so intertwined with the historical events and struggles that occurred between the Republic/Rebellion and the Empire/CIS. However, this shouldn't consume the whole debate and become the only part of the discussion.


My philosophical tendencies have agreed with the Jedi and Stoicism in some respects: suppressing negative emotions and working for the common good. However, their hypocritical and apathetic responses to the Republic and the way everyone assumes they're perfect is what turns me against them. On the side, because Lucas is a Buddhist, I think that's influenced his creation of the Jedi as who they are as they share many principles.

thecordler's Avatar


thecordler
12.20.2011 , 01:29 AM | #24
why is it that everyone says the Jedi are against emotion, they fully understand it and accept it. THEY TEACH THAT A JEDI MUST OVERCOME HIS EMOTION! there is no emotion there is peace, if one can overcome and clear their judgement of emotion they can bring peace to themselves and resolve any conflict about their actions.

to quote yoda "do not mourn the loss of life, we must rejoice in their becoming one with the force." The idea of this statement is clear, do not let the despair of loss overtake you, find peace and joy in the fact that people die and become apart of the infinite energy surrounding and flowing through us.

Another Yoda "Pain. Suffering. Death, I feel. Something terrible has happened. Young Skywalker is in pain. Terrible pain" notice the word I FEEL.

another Yoda "You will know… when you are calm, at peace, passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack." the idea is to think with a clear mind, any emotional disposition always sway your decisions.

Finally

To quote obi-wan "Anakin you betrayed the jedi order, you were my brother, I LOVED YOU" he was then able to relinquish his bond with anakin to leave him to suffer in agony and burn to death, while simultaneously leaving him with the chance to survive.

Another Obi-wan quote "He is like my brother...I cannot do it" clearly if the jedi ignored emotion yoda would have said something prolific, however Obi-wan was able to catch himself have his moment and clear his head and do what is right.

The jedi have never been about not experiencing emotion, they are about overcoming the attachments and devotions that EMOTIONS themselves bring, they teach not to LET emotions dictate your actions as in the STAR WARS universe there is a darkside that influences the mind of force users empowering their emotions to incredibly dictatorial effects that rule an individual.

Fyurii's Avatar


Fyurii
12.20.2011 , 06:21 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthVarrak View Post
I have always seen the Jedi as the true bad guys. Wanting us to push down our emotions all the time, basically turn us into droids with flesh.
Twaddle.
They don't want "us" to suppress our emotions, they teach themselves to control their own emotions.

Surrendering to their emotions is a giant leap to the Dark Side.

Quote:
The Sith is where it's at, embrace your emotions, they are what makes you human (or humanoid sentient species), what makes us strong in times of struggle.
Except you're forgetting one important thing.
The Dark Side of The Force.
No amount of good intention (and the road to hell is paved with them) does anything against its corruption. It will twist and destroy a good person, turning them into a monster whose only interest in themselves and their own success. Just like the Sith.

Quote:
Mothers with children in danger can do extraordinary things because of emotion, like lift a car.
And inspire legendary comic book characters like the Incredible Hulk...

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If those mothers were Jedi their children would die.
This is by far, the single most ridiculous thing I've read in the history of this site. Ever.

Quote:
Actually they wouldn't even have been born cause Jedi aren't supposed to have children.
They can have children, and many have had children.
I'm not talking about those who have children in secret, post Ruusan Reformations, but those who are given permission.
Pre-Ruusan Reformations many Jedi had children and even got married, even to other Jedi.

Learn the lore before posting in ignorance.
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Hokonoso's Avatar


Hokonoso
12.20.2011 , 10:09 AM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Empirarte View Post
This question has been going through my brain for a while now, so I'm curious what other people think.

In the Original Trilogy, the Rebel Alliance who are the "good guys" are sabotaging the Empire's efforts and trying to cause destruction from the inside. Using violence, the Rebel Alliance finally manages to gain independence from the Empire and become the New Republic. They based their entire war on principles of government and used violence to support their fight.

Now rewind twenty or thirty years ago, to Episode II. Several systems are upset about how things are being run in the government and so want to peacefully leave the Republic. However, they meet stern resistance and when they try to execute some spies who are illegally infiltrating and killing some civilians (Obi Wan, Anakin, and Padmé), the Jedi Order begins a massive attack in order to free them. After the CIS tried to put down this invasion, a full-scale Republic invasion of Geonosis begins which leads to the Clone Wars, justified only by retrieving three important people.

Frankly, I think the CIS were much more justified than the Rebel Alliance was. It seems that who's good and who is bad is based upon whether or not you believe in Jedi or Sith philosophy. This also forms a strong parallel to the American Revolution and Civil War now that I think about it, however the North had more reason to fight than the Republic did, namely because the Republic is very corrupt at this point.

So, post your thoughts and comments about who was morally justified in these wars, and don't just say someone was good or bad because George Lucas wanted it that way. Thanks for non-troll responses.
the original trilogy is a direct parallel of the Imperials - Great Brittain and the Rebel Alliance - USA, so answer your question yourself with that in mind.

but in the movies, the Imperials are right in both cases, prequel and later, the the whole war is caused by the jedis need to eradicate the sith (not the other way around mind you), the whole war was fought and lost by that case alone, very lame imo since the jedi code is a lie and the sith code is something we deal with on a day to day basis in the real world...
What is democrazy? It is a government in which the ruling power is given to whoever is most skillful at directing the herd instincts of the largest masses of their most ignorant citizens.
--Nom Anor

Fyurii's Avatar


Fyurii
12.20.2011 , 12:48 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
but in the movies, the Imperials are right in both cases, prequel and later, the the whole war is caused by the jedis need to eradicate the sith (not the other way around mind you), the whole war was fought and lost by that case alone, very lame imo since the jedi code is a lie and the sith code is something we deal with on a day to day basis in the real world...
As far as the Jedi knew, the Sith had been extinct for a thousand years.
When they finally revealed themselves, the Jedi didn't go hunting them down. They didn't know where to start searching for one thing. The Jedi didn't start the Clone Wars. Sidious' manipulations of the Senate and creating and directing the Confederacy of Independent Systems started the war, thwarting the Jedi's best efforts in promoting diplomacy and trying to prevent war.

The Jedi have never had a "need" to eradicate the Sith, only in stopping their plans for conquest and total domination. Until Bane's Rule of Two, the Sith had usually done a good job of inadvertently assisting the Jedi & Republic in this. Usually with their typical selfishness and backstabbing.

Whenever the Sith have presented as a clear and present danger to the Republic, then the Jedi have reacted.

The Sith code is not something we deal with day to day. It's all about surrendering to one's emotions, to let them sway you and your choices toward becoming "superior" to all others and making them subservient to your bidding. It's entirely about you and no one else.

The Jedi code isn't a lie. If anything it's a far better guideline for living one's life as part of civilisation.
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Empirarte's Avatar


Empirarte
12.20.2011 , 04:38 PM | #28
Stepping outside of the argument for the moment I want to connect these parallels to the real world.

Empire vs. Rebellion
--------------------------
Great Britain vs. American Colonies
Rome vs. Britannica and Gaul

Republic vs. CIS
-------------------
American Civil War

As for the philosophical differences between Jedi and Sith:

Jedi vs. Sith
-------------
Stoicism vs. Natural Inclination
Buddhism vs. ""
Superego vs. Id
Apollonian vs. Dionysian
Natural World vs. Civilization
Suppressing feelings vs. Utilizing emotions

------------------------------------------------------------------
The Jedi discourage emotions, especially strong ones.
  • Yoda warns Anakin about his fear in Episode I
  • Jedi are forbidden to marry until the New Republic
  • Jedi meditate in the Eastern fashion (emotionless)

They mainly avoid emotion because of the powerful control it can have over people as it does in the Sith but they do go a bit far. And as I've said before, not meaning any disrespect at all if it sounds offensive, but I equate Jedi philosophy with a kind of militarized Buddhism. Buddhism believes that emotions are harmful for similar reasons.

Kholvan's Avatar


Kholvan
12.20.2011 , 05:02 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by JediArchives View Post
Everything in the prequel trilogy is manipulated by the Sith...and you left mention of their involvement out completely.
It's irrelevant. A decision can only be justified by the decision-maker's knowledge at the time of the decision. Not a single prominent figure even suspected Palpatine was behind the CIS, at least until Anakin tells Windu that Palpy is a Sith. Even then, they don't have any actual evidence that Palps is behind the CIS, except for the legendary Rule of Two.

Unless there's a Republic law against Sithery, the Jedi had no grounds to arrest Palpatine - Mace certainly had no grounds to threaten to assassinate him. As a sworn Jedi, Anakin was bound by oath to protect the Republic, and Palps was the legitimately elected leader of the Republic. In a sense, Anakin would have been violating his oath if he didn't attack Mace.

As for the clone wars in general, well, wars are never really justified by anything other than power plays on both sides.

JediArchives's Avatar


JediArchives
12.20.2011 , 07:54 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Empirarte View Post
I'm not that fond of the CIS, but I don't like how everyone assumes the Jedi side is always right. So from what I can tell, the Trade Federation and Count Dooku have been causing most of the trouble in terms of the assassination attempts. I don't think three spies, despite their importance, should not be the cause of a galaxy wide war which will lead to the death of billions of lives. If the CIS attacked first, then of course they should be able to fight back but they had little confirmation of any invasion taking place and used no diplomatic weight to tell them to stop making such large armies, they just charged in.

Again, you are ignoring the fact that Obi-Wan heard the plans of the C.I.S. leadership., which was to attack the Republic and overwhelm the Jedi, forcing the Senate to agree to any demands they make. Why is this not getting through?

Those 3 weren't the reason for the war. War was inevitable, because it's what Dooku and Sidious wanted. Obi-Wan reported this to the Council, the C.I.S. had no intentions of doing anything but attacking the Republic. This is why they gathered the Jedi to save Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme : War was inevitable, the C.I.S. was building a huge army for that purpose alone, the Jedi would save those 3 and buy time for the Clone Army to show up.

If you know an enemy is preparing for a massive attack, and you have the chance to strike first (while saving 3 incredibly important figures in galactic affairs), you're going to take it.

Quote: Originally Posted by Empirarte View Post
The droid army wasn't really illegal if the CIS was actually a Confederation of Independent Systems; they should be able to have their own military like the Republic had on a smaller scale to deal with local crises and pirates. .

The Trade Federation provided most of the droids we see in Episode 2 (minus the Super Battle Droids). The Federation was banned from producing a droid army after Naboo. It was illegal.

Quote: Originally Posted by Empirarte View Post
What I am basically trying to say is that the Republic should have tried more peaceful tactics before invading Geonosis and launching such a destructive war.
Heh, you missed the entire backstory for Episode 2 I guess. The Republic tried negotiations for years, as soon as the C.I.S. was formed and announced their intentions to leave the Republic. But guess who the leader of the Republic was? A Sith Lord! Kind of, you know, manipulating events to push the galaxy into war.
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.
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