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Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Exar Kun vs Mandalore the Ultimate

Gratulor's Avatar


Gratulor
11.30.2012 , 02:06 PM | #31
I am a total Mandohead, but looking at it critically this is what I believe would be the result.

Firstly, Exar Kun has a few advantages. He has the force, devout Massassi warriors altered by Sith alchemy, Krath warriors and dark side beasts. Mandalore the Ultimate has technology on his side. Warriors clad in Mandalorian iron suits and Basiliskan droids and starships. We also know the quality of his Neo-Crusader warriors are not all up to Mandalorian standards, since he released prisoners to fight for him and drafted civilians to make up his forces. Exar Kun used stolen Republic and ageing Krath technology.

Mandalorians fighting against the Massassi is a pretty easy outcome. The Massassi use melee weapons and projectiles in the form of disks (Lanvaroks) and they lack full armour. The Mandos use full armour suits and most frequently use blaster weapons. The Mandalorians have the advantage there.

But in the end, Exar Kun is a clear winner. His mastery of the dark side gives him the power to overwhelm the Mandalorians, and if he can use illusions (like Naga Sadow used to give the illusion of a larger force) he could supplement his forces with that. We know that Exar Kun was one of the greatest duelists and force users of his time. Even a force of fully trained Jedi had to imprison him just to defeat him because they couldn't get close enough to kill him. If the Jedi have little chance, then the Mandalorians have zero.
"If you only look after your own hide, then you're not a man."

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.30.2012 , 02:25 PM | #32
Some food for thought.

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.30.2012 , 02:31 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Some food for thought.

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.
Exar Kun had several Jedi Knights that he turned to the Dark Side. These Jedi were capable of killing their own masters in battle, so I'd put them above the normal Jedi that Revan had in the war. Not only that, but Ulic Qel-Droma took out Mandalore's personal Basilisk with relative ease. The War droids may pose a threat to Exar Kun's Krath and Massassi, but not a great one to his Sith.

In the end, I see it coming down to Exar and some Sith taking on Mandalore and a fairly large group of Mandalorians. If this is the case, Exar Kun wins easy.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.30.2012 , 02:31 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Some food for thought.

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.
If this is the case then the Krath warships and Republic technology go down in flames. Bassilisks are quite dangerous, more firepower than any starfighters of their time, able to take down ships much, much larger than themselves, and they are war mechs, not just vehicles. Semi-sentient, able to fight in melee range and bombard from a distance.

I don't really like seige scenarios, but are we looking at EK holding up at Y4? If so I call shenanigans. Mandalorians are known to sling-shot nukes, and they could bombard Y4 into a smoldering crater.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.30.2012 , 02:45 PM | #35
The topic of bombardment comes up quite a bit in these battles. Should there be a rule against bombardment? Just for the sake of a debate. Because if Mandalore can dominate space, there's no need to engage Exar Kun where he is strongest.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Gratulor's Avatar


Gratulor
11.30.2012 , 02:46 PM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
If this is the case then the Krath warships and Republic technology go down in flames. Bassilisks are quite dangerous, more firepower than any starfighters of their time, able to take down ships much, much larger than themselves, and they are war mechs, not just vehicles. Semi-sentient, able to fight in melee range and bombard from a distance.

I don't really like seige scenarios, but are we looking at EK holding up at Y4? If so I call shenanigans. Mandalorians are known to sling-shot nukes, and they could bombard Y4 into a smoldering crater.
Wouldn't nukes be considered superweapons?
"If you only look after your own hide, then you're not a man."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 02:59 PM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Some food for thought.

People seem to be assuming that Exar Kun - like Revan - has a vast amount of Sith on his side, he doesn't (or at least to my knowledge. Can anyone give me clarification on their numbers? I am sure they are not many. While the Revanchists must have numbered in the 100s. So the battles are not exactly comparable.

What made up the majority of Exar Kun's forces were Massasi Warriors and Krath. They were skilled warriors but then so were Mandalorians. And they had basilisk war droids, which would tear apart Kun's forces. I estimate the number of basilisk's to be vast. They were present in almost every battle so we can assume that 1/4 of the neo-crusaders possessed one - and more were in reserve.

Exar Kun may be extremely powerful, but he can only bring his full powers to bear on the ground. In space he is vulnerable.
So, for arguments sake, we're saying that for every 4 Mandos there is a single Basilisk? That's pretty good for MtU.

We know how affective the Basilisks are, but we also know that Revan was able to single-handedly take one out in the novel. I hear Ulic Qel-Droma did the same. So with that in mind, the Basilisks aren't gonna be a big problem for Kun, Qel-Droma, and a few of the more powerful Sith/Dark Jedi on their side.

HOWEVER: Kun's army is made up mostly of Krath and Massassi. With 1/4 Mandos owning a Basilisk, they're gonna kill tons of Kun's army. Also, the Mandos are technologically superior.

This is how I see the scenario playing out:
Both armies engage in a epic series of battles. This results in high casulties for Kun, and relatively low casulties for MtU. Because of their victories, the Mando's bloodlust goes out the roof! The Mandos win a few more battles due to their momentum, but they've become proud. They essentially corner Kun's army - who are tired of losing.

And we all know how dangerous a cornered beast is.

The Mandos go all out attack and are MURDERED by the Kun and his army. Kun and his men have slowly accumulated so much hatred towards the Mandos that it shows in their fighting and they kill 5 Mandos for every Krath/Massassi that goes down.

Despite this victory, Mando numbers remain higher then Kun's. But the all-important momentum of MtU and his army has been lost - along with many of their Basilisks. Kun goes on the offensive and wins a series of battles. At this point it is obvious that MtU has lost, and he takes defensive measures as he did at the Battle of Malachor V. And just like the Battle of Malachor, he loses. The end.

That's how I see things playing out. I really do want MtU to win it, but I just don't see it happening.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.30.2012 , 02:59 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The topic of bombardment comes up quite a bit in these battles. Should there be a rule against bombardment? Just for the sake of a debate. Because if Mandalore can dominate space, there's no need to engage Exar Kun where he is strongest.
I don't see a point (or yours for that matter ) If one combatant has a superior space advantage, they get the benefit of orbital bombardment. Orbital bombardment itself is not the problem, its imprentrable-ish fortresses, which orbital bombardment counters. So in this case, Exar Kun couldn't hunker down on Yavin 4 if driven back. Because Mandalore would blow his temple to pieces.

And yes nukes are banned, but orbital bombardment via laser cannons (see Taris) does not count as a superweapon.

The way I see it, minus Exar Kun = Mandalore victory. But Exar Kun is in the Kaggath (Ulic-Qel Droma isn't however, so him destroying Basilik war droids is an invalid point - not to mention the fact that he is considerably better than your standard dark jedi) so the tide turns.

Exar Kun could face and easily defeat Mandalore in person, but he has to get to him first. I don't know if Mandalore has a specific base so I guess it would be on his flagship. So he has to confront Mandalore's flagship, and board it - which requires some sort of space advantage...

The space advantage also hinges on ground advantage as that determines resources, territory etc.
So we have to consider, how to the combatants armies weigh up?

Krath <> Mandalorians?
Dark Jedi <> Mandalorians?
Massassi Warriors <> Mandalorians?
Sith War Beasts <> Basilik War Droids?
etc.

Thoughts?

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 03:01 PM | #39
So have we decided that Mandalore dominates space? If so, that changes things...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.30.2012 , 03:08 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
So, for arguments sake, we're saying that for every 4 Mandos there is a single Basilisk? That's pretty good for MtU.
Well as long as everyone else agrees... all I know is they were present in almost every battle. It took one Mando to pilot one. And in the Revan novel, Revan encounters a clan of say 10-12? With 2 Basilik droids, and that was when they were outlawed after the war, we assume they had more at the height of Mandalore's power.

So yes, at least 1 Basilisk per 4 Mandos
Quote:
We know how affective the Basilisks are, but we also know that Revan was able to single-handedly take one out in the novel. I hear Ulic Qel-Droma did the same. So with that in mind, the Basilisks aren't gonna be a big problem for Kun, Qel-Droma, and a few of the more powerful Sith/Dark Jedi on their side.
Remember though, Revan and Qel-Dromo (the latter is not in this fight) were powerful force users. So no surprises their. I expect a 2 Basilisk could defeat a single dark Jedi. Yes they killed their masters, but they caught them by surprise, and not all succeeded - so we have to take that with a pinch of salt.

You make good points however.

Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
So have we decided that Mandalore dominates space? If so, that changes things...
IMO yes. But thats in non-arbiter mode and subject to debate.