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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.30.2012 , 11:01 AM | #331
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Now you speak of the force as if Traya is the only one who has it. Revan has himself (he's no slouch) and plenty of Jedi. This isn't a force vs strength in numbers fight.

If you honestly think that Traya can beat Revan in this scenario, then there's nothing I can do to.
Three jedi masters that survived the purge that the Sith Triumvirate initiated, wiped away with one fel swoop by Traya in their own enclave. It is -not- about being a slouch in numbers or the Force, it is proven ability and testimony from the characters. Revan, Jedi Knight Revan, is absolutely dead according to the very definition of Traya's -demonstrated- power.

There's nothing you can do because there is nothing you can present as evidence to the contrary. Her two apprentices kicked her out of the order because they had learned all the could from her, and look at them:

Darth Sion
Darth Nihilus

two of the most powerful forces spawned by dark teachings- Inability to die and the ability to devour, to kill the Force, under her command and her tutelage (I am aware Sion's power did not come from Traya but she did further his education and have complete control of him) If they are not clear examples of her power, of her knowledge, and if you cannot imagine just Jedi Knight Revan facing her power, *emphasis* demonstrated power, for which there is no defense, or at the very least no defense that could be known by JKRevan or the jedi under his command, then, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do for you

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 11:19 AM | #332
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
Three jedi masters that survived the purge that the Sith Triumvirate initiated, wiped away with one fel swoop by Traya in their own enclave. It is -not- about being a slouch in numbers or the Force, it is proven ability and testimony from the characters. Revan, Jedi Knight Revan, is absolutely dead according to the very definition of Traya's -demonstrated- power.

There's nothing you can do because there is nothing you can present as evidence to the contrary. Her two apprentices kicked her out of the order because they had learned all the could from her, and look at them:

Darth Sion
Darth Nihilus

two of the most powerful forces spawned by dark teachings- Inability to die and the ability to devour, to kill the Force, under her command and her tutelage (I am aware Sion's power did not come from Traya but she did further his education and have complete control of him) If they are not clear examples of her power, of her knowledge, and if you cannot imagine just Jedi Knight Revan facing her power, *emphasis* demonstrated power, for which there is no defense, or at the very least no defense that could be known by JKRevan or the jedi under his command, then, I'm sorry, there is nothing I can do for you
"No evidence I can present on the contrary?" Listen; I'm not downplaying her ability in the force. Not at all. I would agree that (due to sever force) that she could likely beat Revan one-on-one.

This is my argument in this scenario: Traya has one shuttle vs Revan and a thousand hammerheads. Not only that, but he is likely building hammerheads due to the endless amount of loot he could accumulate because the rest of the known galaxy is up for grabs.

For argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Traya and her assassin's can board a Republic ship. Now what? There is no chance that they could take out a THOUSAND of Revan's ships before they were killed. Does Revan need to fight Traya one-on-one to do this? No. Here's what happens:

One of Revan's ships is being taken over by the assassins and then someone turns on the alarm. At that second Revan know's one of his ships. What does he do? He blasts it to peices. Traya and her assassins are all dead.

I suppose you'll argue that Traya and her assassins will sneak onto several ships before they reveal themselves. The same thing happen's here. Somebody pulls the alarm and Revan shoot's them down.

How many assassins could you fit in a shuttle? If you are REALLY stuffing it, I imagine you could fit thirty. What happens if each of these assassins are able to successfully infiltrate a ship? Same thing happens. They get shot down. Revan has them so vastly outnumbered. Not only that, but he's a great stratigist. You'll argue that Revan doesn't know what he's doing, but he's used some mass-deceptions of his own. Canderous Ordo says it himself that as soon as Revan joined the war, he started using mass-deceptions. The guy canonically knows this stuff.

What is it that I've said here that leads you to believe I'm ilogical as you've implied?

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 11:24 AM | #333
Also, somebody argued earlier that Traya's forces wouldn't betray her because they have no escape. Well now that they have this shuttle, they'll all be tempted to leave. Thoughts?

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.30.2012 , 11:29 AM | #334
I haven't being reading these passed posts, just scanning. So far I haven't found any argument made by either side that sways my decision.

I will however counter one point, if only to protect the integrity of the debate.
Quote: Originally Posted by NasalJack View Post

And that's really what it comes down to. The Kaggath sets up what is supposed to be a military conflict between a fully realized military power with an experienced leader and an organization that is completely ill-equipped to be anything of the sort and a non-military leader. There's nothing wrong with Kreia or her methods in the normal scheme of things, but battle like this is CLEARLY not her strength.

I think only the best of Kreia in the areas where she excels, but with the conflict as presented in the OP it is absolutely ridiculous to think she had even a fighting chance.
Incorrect. The Kaggath was an ancient rite of Sith that pitted the combatants and their respective power bases against each other.

Darth Nox was not an 'experienced leader' with a 'fully realized military power' - his power base consisted of himself and a Moff that liked him. Traya is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith Triumvirate - one of two powers (the other being Darth Sidious) who pratically succeeded in wiping out the Jedi Order. I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Traya had a couple of battered cruisers and some sith here and there. She inherited the entire Sith Empire. And unless the Republic managed to wipe out the Empire, which may I mention was winning the war, in the space of a year, then much of it remained when Traya took the mantle. The Kaggath is one part duel one part large-scale dejarik-match. What did Traya say again?

"No game of dejarik can be one without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game"

Its the opening quote to the thread for gods sake, Traya was made for the Kaggath, a duel where deception, manipulation and guile where just as important as military strategy.

Oh and no way would Traya leave Malachor when Revan had it surrounded. You may argue the rules force her to, because its against the rules to sit and do nothing (which it is). But Traya was doing something, not physically but mentally. She was goading him into a direct confrontation, feigning complete defeat and no doubt manipulating his mind through the Force and enticing him with the dark side energies of Malachor. In more ways than one, she was on the offensive.

/endthread
(lol, I actually have the power to do that)

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.30.2012 , 11:29 AM | #335
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Also, somebody argued earlier that Traya's forces wouldn't betray her because they have no escape. Well now that they have this shuttle, they'll all be tempted to leave. Thoughts?
They still wouldn't betray her. They have become enthralled to her cause. Her manipulations and the corruption of Malachor V have literally enthralled them to her. The are fanatically loyal to the Dark Side and their master.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.30.2012 , 11:31 AM | #336
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
"No evidence I can present on the contrary?" Listen; I'm not downplaying her ability in the force. Not at all. I would agree that (due to sever force) that she could likely beat Revan one-on-one.

This is my argument in this scenario: Traya has one shuttle vs Revan and a thousand hammerheads. Not only that, but he is likely building hammerheads due to the endless amount of loot he could accumulate because the rest of the known galaxy is up for grabs.

For argument's sake, I'll agree with you that Traya and her assassin's can board a Republic ship. Now what? There is no chance that they could take out a THOUSAND of Revan's ships before they were killed. Does Revan need to fight Traya one-on-one to do this? No. Here's what happens:

One of Revan's ships is being taken over by the assassins and then someone turns on the alarm. At that second Revan know's one of his ships. What does he do? He blasts it to peices. Traya and her assassins are all dead.

I suppose you'll argue that Traya and her assassins will sneak onto several ships before they reveal themselves. The same thing happen's here. Somebody pulls the alarm and Revan shoot's them down.

How many assassins could you fit in a shuttle? If you are REALLY stuffing it, I imagine you could fit thirty. What happens if each of these assassins are able to successfully infiltrate a ship? Same thing happens. They get shot down. Revan has them so vastly outnumbered. Not only that, but he's a great stratigist. You'll argue that Revan doesn't know what he's doing, but he's used some mass-deceptions of his own. Canderous Ordo says it himself that as soon as Revan joined the war, he started using mass-deceptions. The guy canonically knows this stuff.

What is it that I've said here that leads you to believe I'm ilogical as you've implied?
Step 1. Fill a shuttle full of Sith Assassins
Step 2. Exploit a straggler ship, begin doing as what happened aboard the Harbinger and start injuring crew, cutting them down to half-shifts, basically allowing the assassins more freedom of movement.
Step 3. Bring more assassins.
Step 4. Wait for the inevitable inter-fleet travel in order to perforate the assassins throughout the fleet and find their way to Revan's ship, bringing Kreia along who is no amateur to sneaking around.
Step 5. Assassinate Revan. What's the rest of the fleet going to do, send boarding parties? Against an invisible enemy and someone who could dispatch her own assassins with a four-second fade-to-black screen?

There is no strategy to confront what you are not aware of. And the knowledge that there are assassins is useless if you have no way to counter them. Aboard the Harbinger with one apparent Sith Lord in a tank, even when knowing Sith were aboard the ship, the Republic forces could do nothing to stop the slaughter that was to come. Very much the same scenario here because the fleet would not fire aboard Revan's ship. However, if the did, for some reason, then you would have your tie

Or perhaps the assassins are a diversion aboard the other ships, raising red flags and alarms everywhere, mass chaos, panic, allowing for Traya to subtly sneak into Revan's ship, assassinating him and then leaving. She's quite good at sneaking around, using words in order to get large results, but when the end result is to kill Revan... as you've admitted he is quite vulnerable to her... well... lol.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 11:37 AM | #337
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
Step 1. Fill a shuttle full of Sith Assassins
Step 2. Exploit a straggler ship, begin doing as what happened aboard the Harbinger and start injuring crew, cutting them down to half-shifts, basically allowing the assassins more freedom of movement.
Step 3. Bring more assassins.
Step 4. Wait for the inevitable inter-fleet travel in order to perforate the assassins throughout the fleet and find their way to Revan's ship, bringing Kreia along who is no amateur to sneaking around.
Step 5. Assassinate Revan. What's the rest of the fleet going to do, send boarding parties? Against an invisible enemy and someone who could dispatch her own assassins with a four-second fade-to-black screen?

There is no strategy to confront what you are not aware of. And the knowledge that there are assassins is useless if you have no way to counter them. Aboard the Harbinger with one apparent Sith Lord in a tank, even when knowing Sith were aboard the ship, the Republic forces could do nothing to stop the slaughter that was to come. Very much the same scenario here because the fleet would not fire aboard Revan's ship. However, if the did, for some reason, then you would have your tie

Or perhaps the assassins are a diversion aboard the other ships, raising red flags and alarms everywhere, mass chaos, panic, allowing for Traya to subtly sneak into Revan's ship, assassinating him and then leaving.
An interesting scenario, but one flaw: while you may not be able to see assassins, you can see ships.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.30.2012 , 11:39 AM | #338
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
An interesting scenario, but one flaw: while you may not be able to see assassins, you can see ships.
True. But then again, that didn't help Captain Needa.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.30.2012 , 11:40 AM | #339
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
An interesting scenario, but one flaw: while you may not be able to see assassins, you can see ships.
you can also jam transmissions. You can also hide in the debris fields. The republic could very well be sending scouting parties through the debris fields to make sure nothing leaves, your blockade, board one and fly back... mm, quite fun. It could be interesting, the shuttle could feign as debris, or it could be investigated by those just far too curious, or Traya could be aboard and manipulate the crew's minds.

And if the ships are not close enough to the debris field, then they are not scanning and Beni's scenario plays out.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.30.2012 , 11:41 AM | #340
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I haven't being reading these passed posts, just scanning. So far I haven't found any argument made by either side that sways my decision.

I will however counter one point, if only to protect the integrity of the debate.

Incorrect. The Kaggath was an ancient rite of Sith that pitted the combatants and their respective power bases against each other.

Darth Nox was not an 'experienced leader' with a 'fully realized military power' - his power base consisted of himself and a Moff that liked him. Traya is a Sith Lord and leader of the Sith Triumvirate - one of two powers (the other being Darth Sidious) who pratically succeeded in wiping out the Jedi Order. I've yet to see any evidence to suggest that Traya had a couple of battered cruisers and some sith here and there. She inherited the entire Sith Empire. And unless the Republic managed to wipe out the Empire, which may I mention was winning the war, in the space of a year, then much of it remained when Traya took the mantle. The Kaggath is one part duel one part large-scale dejarik-match. What did Traya say again?

"No game of dejarik can be one without pawns... and this may prove to be a very long game"

Its the opening quote to the thread for gods sake, Traya was made for the Kaggath, a duel where deception, manipulation and guile where just as important as military strategy.

Oh and no way would Traya leave Malachor when Revan had it surrounded. You may argue the rules force her to, because its against the rules to sit and do nothing (which it is). But Traya was doing something, not physically but mentally. She was goading him into a direct confrontation, feigning complete defeat and no doubt manipulating his mind through the Force and enticing him with the dark side energies of Malachor. In more ways than one, she was on the offensive.

/endthread
(lol, I actually have the power to do that)
OK done.

I can see you've likely picked Traya to win. *sigh*

Please go back and read the last 5 pages before you finalize your answer. I realize you don't intend to announce the winner until the start of the next thread, but it would really help me leave this debate behind if you did. Just saying.