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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 01:57 PM | #271
Quote: Originally Posted by NasalJack View Post
1. Revan's fleet outnumbers the Sith fleet. Like, by a lot. So why are you assuming that a) Revan would for some reason be unprepared to be attacked by ships and b) take heavier losses in his massive fleet than the Sith would with their much smaller fleet? It makes no sense.

2) "Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships". How? In the scenario you gave, they can't just "sneak" on as they would need ships to do so, and ships are not as invisible as the assassins. So a lot of assassins die trying to get their ships onto Republic ships, and even then, Revan knows SOMETHING is up since nothing seems to come out of the boarding party ships.

3) "the assassins have taken control of multiple frigates". Again, how? The takeover of the ship we saw in KOTOR 2 took a while, and tons of people on these ships are going to have plenty of time to report that some **** is going down before the Assassins have control of the ship. Which gives Revan options of sending his own men into the ships to clear out these assassins, or simply shoot his own ships down if he thinks it'd be better use of his resources.

For some reason people seem to think these Assassins are some sort of trump card that wins the battle for Kreia, but their strength lies in the shadows, and choosing their battles. If Revan is forcing a direct engagement in which the assassins need to board Revan's ships while in space, while Revan is anticipating boarding parties...then there goes surprise, their MAIN advantage.

If taking over multiple Republic ships was so easy to do, these assassins would have DONE that already in KOTOR 2, taking over Republic ships that wouldn't be expecting it, and not full of battle ready troops. But given that they didn't, we can pretty much assume it's not as easy as some people are making it out to be. The only ship we DO see them take is alone, not full of soldiers, not exactly battle prepared, brought a derelict ship onboard (which is what let the assassins into the ship in the first place), and they had Darth Sion with them as well. So essentially the absolute ideal situation for them.

And what indication do we have that these assassins know how to operate massive Republic ships? They certainly didn't capture the one from KOTOR 2 and add it to the Sith fleet, did they?
Isn't it awesome that I created a scenario that was as unlikely to work as Revan bombarding Malachor?

And besides, Beni ended the debate and is prepared to declare the winner.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 02:07 PM | #272
I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would not otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.

NasalJack's Avatar


NasalJack
11.29.2012 , 02:17 PM | #273
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.
This is exactly what I was thinking as I read through these last few pages. For some reason Revan is bound to launch a foolhardy assault as per the rules, but Kreia is exempt from having to do the same. She is allowed to fortify a position in the most defendable location in existence, which only works because Revan is FORCED, through no choice of his own, to attack it.

The real result of this war, assuming Revan's hand isn't forced, is that Kreia is a prisoner. That's victory right there, imprisoning the enemy leader and high command. The planet is blockaded, and since Kreia has no way to escape, she is imprisoned on an inhospitable planet with Sith of dubious loyalty, while Revan can do whatever the hell he wants now.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 02:18 PM | #274
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I apologize Beni, I really do, but I must say one last thing regarding the Kaggath rule: They must fight to the death! I know you've already made a decision (and I totally respect your decision). With that in mind, I'll say it:

If this Kaggath rule forces a Kaggath participant into making a decision they would not otherwise note make, isn't the rule flawed? Don't we need to represent these characters as best we can?

The truth is this: As impossible as Malachor V is to attack, Revan wouldn't attack it. As I've said, he'd send a strike team in, they'd go nuts, and he'd realize the uselessness in attacking. So Revan wouldn't attack. The only reason he'd end up attacking is because the Kaggath rules state that somebody has to die. I mean, if this rule is what forces Revan to make a poor decision now, then why didn't the rule force Traya to engage Revan in a legit space battle with all of her forces. The truth is, neither of these scenarios are fair, seeing as how neither of the characters would end up making the decisions to get into these scenarios. I feel that a draw/stalemate is the most logical/fair outcome.

I know you've already made your decision, but had to say this one last thing. Regardless of you answer, I've enjoyed this battle very much and I greatly enjoy these Kaggath matches you've set up for us.
Granted the rule can be flawed, but the battle has to end sometime. A stalemate isn't the best conclusion, but if neither of them attack it is the only conclusion.

I think I should stress one thing. I think Revan would attack. It would be a dumb move, but he would move all of his forces to attack the planet. Of course, that's my opinion, but I don't think Revan would want to sit around. But if he doesn't attack, there is no real conclusion.

We just have to wait and see what the outcome is.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.29.2012 , 06:20 PM | #275
Saying that Revan has to try attacking Malachor is like saying Traya has to try boarding Revan's flagship.

NasalJack's Avatar


NasalJack
11.29.2012 , 07:33 PM | #276
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
Saying that Revan has to try attacking Malachor is like saying Traya has to try boarding Revan's flagship.
Exactly. But given that Beni has been arguing in favor of Kreia throughout the debate, and insistent on shoehorning Revan into a 1v1 in the place she's most powerful...I think his decision was made a while back.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 07:38 PM | #277
Quote: Originally Posted by NasalJack View Post
Exactly. But given that Beni has been arguing in favor of Kreia throughout the debate, and insistent on shoehorning Revan into a 1v1 in the place she's most powerful...I think his decision was made a while back.
Except it was the only possible scenario for Revan to confront Traya. She is unlikely to leave Malachor, which means Revan has to confront her, per the Kaggath rules.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

NasalJack's Avatar


NasalJack
11.29.2012 , 08:02 PM | #278
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Except it was the only possible scenario for Revan to confront Traya. She is unlikely to leave Malachor, which means Revan has to confront her, per the Kaggath rules.
As per the rules of the Kaggath, Kreia also shouldn't be able to hide...

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 08:09 PM | #279
Quote: Originally Posted by NasalJack View Post
As per the rules of the Kaggath, Kreia also shouldn't be able to hide...
She's not really hiding. She's using her weapons and resources to their fullest. It's a part of her character to wait for her enemy. She's a plotter.

Revan is aggressive and would attack. But if you want to go on about how unfair such an engagement is, go ahead. We'll wait for Beni to announce the victor.

Edit: And there's nothing in the rules about "no hiding". So Traya can sit at Malachor all she wants. She's not breaking any rules and its in her character to lurk in the shadows and manipulate things.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"My ultimate goal is the secret of life-that life that gives us consciousness, for without consciousness each of us is nothing. Through science, i will create new life and sustain my own. There is no reason Darth Plagueis could not live forever."

Airmo's Avatar


Airmo
11.29.2012 , 08:15 PM | #280
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Except it was the only possible scenario for Revan to confront Traya. She is unlikely to leave Malachor, which means Revan has to confront her, per the Kaggath rules.
In a Kaggath you don't have to kill the other person, its until death or surrender so unless we are changing the rules of a Kaggath all Revan has to do is wait her out on the planet filled with a bunch of sith with nowhere to go.

Edit: Read the rules, we did change it.

Edit #2: He waits her out until they all kill eachother, resulting in her death, resulting in his victory.
"Darkness is a friend, an ally. Darkness allows us to understand others, to see what they value when they believe no one else is looking. It allows us to be honest with ourselves, to express those values that we would disavow in the light. The light blinds us. It is only in the dark that we see clearly."