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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.28.2012 , 06:43 PM | #221
Quote: Originally Posted by Airmo View Post
The odd's were stacked against Revan from the start of this match to be honest. Any other version of Revan would have a much better chance of winning, especially Darth Revan from the JCW.
I agree.

I stll don't understand why we didn't use Darth Revan, if the combatants are suppose to be at the height of their power/ powerbases....

We aren't debating Jedi Kreia, so why does Revan get that handicap?

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
11.28.2012 , 07:02 PM | #222
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I agree.

I stll don't understand why we didn't use Darth Revan, if the combatants are suppose to be at the height of their power/ powerbases....

We aren't debating Jedi Kreia, so why does Revan get that handicap?
this lol. im not even that big a fan of revan but the choice for jedi revan was pretty stupid. Unless the OP will make another Kaggath with Darth Revan

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.29.2012 , 01:35 AM | #223
Darth Revan vs Traya would not have worked: they have the same powerbase. Yes in a way they are supposed to be at the height of their power, but Revan seems to have several personalities so one has to be chosen. And the idea that Darth Revan > Revan is a subjective one.

NasalJack's Avatar


NasalJack
11.29.2012 , 04:09 AM | #224
I can't believe I read through all of that...but I felt that I had to before I could respond. Anyway...

It seems the consensus of the thread is that Revan would win in conventional warfare. His fleet is vastly superior, I don't think it could be argued otherwise given the loss of the Ravager and the fact that the Sith of Kotor 2 had the entirety of their fleet pretty much defeated in a single battle by a Republic that was already on the verge of collapsing. Not to mention that Reven has been shown a master of strategy and tactics, furthering his advantage and making the disparity here insurmountable.

So then let's look at Kreia's shadow tactics...unless we're giving her the advantage of initiating combat and giving Revan absolutely no idea who he's fighting until she strikes first (which seems entirely against the idea of this contest in the first place) then Revan will know her power base is Malachor V. Kreia can use her assassins but that's about it... they could cause some chaos and confusion for a little while but Revan would adapt and Kreia has no larger moves to make that utilize the confusion. Her Sith and military forces are nowhere near large enough to mount an attack on Revan's forces no matter how disoriented they are by assassins. She has no comparable military, rendering her one offensive advantage null.

So let's say Revan is attacking Malachor V. Given the nature of the planet, Kreia's fleet can either be defending it from space or...somewhere else. None of her ships can land on the surface any more than Revan's can, so anything that does defend the planet is quickly wiped out, and either way Revan now has COMPLETE control of anything coming into or moving out of Malachor V. If there's a way to block communications with this total blockade, he'll do it and neutralize any forces Kreia has outside of Malchor V, as they would lose coordination.

But now we're supposed to believe that Revan's only option is to land on the planet with everything he has, and in doing so manage to eliminate all of his and Kreia's forces so completely and effectively that they are left to duel in the heart of her power? Given Revan's clear advantage leading up to that point, this is absolutely the worst maneuver possible. He has so many more options, so let's explore them. Keep in mind, at this point Kreia would be unable to organize her Sith Assassins, so even if Revan had somehow had significant casualties before this, there is nothing else Kreia can do.

1. Bombard them from orbit. If ships are pulled in and smashed into the surface...then steer those ships so they crash into the target while blasting it with everything it has on the way down. I think I read someone saying this was against the rules? Well that just serves to lessen a clear advantage for no good reason, but there are other options.

2. Feel out the planet. Send scout teams, build forward bases, established artillery, entrench yourself just as much as Kreia is so that you have a secure postion to advance from. If, in the process, Revan comes to realize the planet makes all of this an impossible tactic, then he can abandone it in the early stages and lose a very small investment of his very large forces. Kreia would control only a very small portion of the planet, which means Revan has the rest of the planet to use as he pleases. Even if establishing a base of his own is not possible, he would have plenty of time to study the planet and develop the best possible methods of transporting troops without losing them, which would significantly improve his chances if an assault were necessary.

3. Turn Kreia's supporters. She is in a position in which it is obvious she has lost the upper hand, so Revan communicates a willingness to pardon and let live those who give up Kreia and surrender. It's already established that Kreia is no leader and cannot inspire loyalty, so naturally a large contingent would jump at the chance to save their own skins by turning her over. Even if she somehow maintain loyalty of some of Sith...who aren't known for their loyalty to weak leaders or lost causes, it would still incite at least some infighting, weakening Kreia's forces even further.

4. Wait. Even without the offer of a pardon, Kreai would be unlikely to maintain the loyalties of those beneath her for an extended period of time in a siege situation that left her powerless. The soldiers would be dying even if the Sith endured, but morale would be at an incredible low and very few Sith would desire to stay and defend the academy for an attack that might come at some point in the future form Revan's massive forces. Those not powerful enough to usurp Kreia's leadership might simply abandone her, and search for wrecked ships to take them off planet or even attempt to establish themselves elsewhere on the planet.

5. Attack. This would happen, if it needed to happen at all, after a long blockade of the planet. Any supporters of Kreia that remained would be low in number, underfed, and very low on morale. Revan could easily lose more than half his army landing them there, but even that wouldn't matter. Even a fraction of his forces would be able to storm the Academy at this point and take it down. Even in the heart of her power, Kreia would not have the strength to fight off dozens of Jedi and hundreds or thousands of troops that would face her there.


One final note I want to make, that I feel has been disregarded this whole debate. Every one keeps talking about how Kreia would attempt to turn Revan's men, or convert them, or cause them to lose faith in their leader...but Revan's forces have VERY clearly been shown to be exceptionally loyal to him, and Kreia's forces have been very clearly shown to be DISLOYAL. They are Sith, after all, and have clearly betrayed her in the past in favor of following the other 2 Sith Lords...so why would anyone think it is Revan's forces that would abandon him and not hers?

Kreia's has one advantage here, the Mass Shadow Generator making landing on the planet difficult (even though I thought the OP said "No superweapons, e.g. Mass Shadow Generator...") but that can only count for so much when she is clearly disadvantaged in every other way that matters. And even with that taken into account, Revan has numerous victory conditions that are extremely likely to occur. Kreia has one: she gets to 1v1 Revan in the place she's most powerful, which would be achieved through the contrived coincidence of ALL of their forces dying in one battle. So who's winning this fight? It seems pretty clear to me...

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.29.2012 , 05:37 AM | #225
You make some excellent points. I had not considered a full scale invasion with entrenching etcetera - more of an assault, but seeing as this would be disastrous Revan would seek to pursue a different path. And yours is very plausible. I'll discuss the finer points of your argument when I have more time and after others have had the chance to do so. I will say however that there is no rule against the orbital bombardment of Malachor - it's just very difficult to do so. But I'll discuss that later.

P.S. Don't get the idea I'm all for Traya. As arbiter of this debate I must remain impartial.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 07:15 AM | #226
Quote: Originally Posted by NasalJack View Post
I can't believe I read through all of that...but I felt that I had to before I could respond. Anyway...

It seems the consensus of the thread is that Revan would win in conventional warfare. His fleet is vastly superior, I don't think it could be argued otherwise given the loss of the Ravager and the fact that the Sith of Kotor 2 had the entirety of their fleet pretty much defeated in a single battle by a Republic that was already on the verge of collapsing. Not to mention that Reven has been shown a master of strategy and tactics, furthering his advantage and making the disparity here insurmountable.

So then let's look at Kreia's shadow tactics...unless we're giving her the advantage of initiating combat and giving Revan absolutely no idea who he's fighting until she strikes first (which seems entirely against the idea of this contest in the first place) then Revan will know her power base is Malachor V. Kreia can use her assassins but that's about it... they could cause some chaos and confusion for a little while but Revan would adapt and Kreia has no larger moves to make that utilize the confusion. Her Sith and military forces are nowhere near large enough to mount an attack on Revan's forces no matter how disoriented they are by assassins. She has no comparable military, rendering her one offensive advantage null.

So let's say Revan is attacking Malachor V. Given the nature of the planet, Kreia's fleet can either be defending it from space or...somewhere else. None of her ships can land on the surface any more than Revan's can, so anything that does defend the planet is quickly wiped out, and either way Revan now has COMPLETE control of anything coming into or moving out of Malachor V. If there's a way to block communications with this total blockade, he'll do it and neutralize any forces Kreia has outside of Malchor V, as they would lose coordination.

But now we're supposed to believe that Revan's only option is to land on the planet with everything he has, and in doing so manage to eliminate all of his and Kreia's forces so completely and effectively that they are left to duel in the heart of her power? Given Revan's clear advantage leading up to that point, this is absolutely the worst maneuver possible. He has so many more options, so let's explore them. Keep in mind, at this point Kreia would be unable to organize her Sith Assassins, so even if Revan had somehow had significant casualties before this, there is nothing else Kreia can do.

1. Bombard them from orbit. If ships are pulled in and smashed into the surface...then steer those ships so they crash into the target while blasting it with everything it has on the way down. I think I read someone saying this was against the rules? Well that just serves to lessen a clear advantage for no good reason, but there are other options.

2. Feel out the planet. Send scout teams, build forward bases, established artillery, entrench yourself just as much as Kreia is so that you have a secure postion to advance from. If, in the process, Revan comes to realize the planet makes all of this an impossible tactic, then he can abandone it in the early stages and lose a very small investment of his very large forces. Kreia would control only a very small portion of the planet, which means Revan has the rest of the planet to use as he pleases. Even if establishing a base of his own is not possible, he would have plenty of time to study the planet and develop the best possible methods of transporting troops without losing them, which would significantly improve his chances if an assault were necessary.

3. Turn Kreia's supporters. She is in a position in which it is obvious she has lost the upper hand, so Revan communicates a willingness to pardon and let live those who give up Kreia and surrender. It's already established that Kreia is no leader and cannot inspire loyalty, so naturally a large contingent would jump at the chance to save their own skins by turning her over. Even if she somehow maintain loyalty of some of Sith...who aren't known for their loyalty to weak leaders or lost causes, it would still incite at least some infighting, weakening Kreia's forces even further.

4. Wait. Even without the offer of a pardon, Kreai would be unlikely to maintain the loyalties of those beneath her for an extended period of time in a siege situation that left her powerless. The soldiers would be dying even if the Sith endured, but morale would be at an incredible low and very few Sith would desire to stay and defend the academy for an attack that might come at some point in the future form Revan's massive forces. Those not powerful enough to usurp Kreia's leadership might simply abandone her, and search for wrecked ships to take them off planet or even attempt to establish themselves elsewhere on the planet.

5. Attack. This would happen, if it needed to happen at all, after a long blockade of the planet. Any supporters of Kreia that remained would be low in number, underfed, and very low on morale. Revan could easily lose more than half his army landing them there, but even that wouldn't matter. Even a fraction of his forces would be able to storm the Academy at this point and take it down. Even in the heart of her power, Kreia would not have the strength to fight off dozens of Jedi and hundreds or thousands of troops that would face her there.


One final note I want to make, that I feel has been disregarded this whole debate. Every one keeps talking about how Kreia would attempt to turn Revan's men, or convert them, or cause them to lose faith in their leader...but Revan's forces have VERY clearly been shown to be exceptionally loyal to him, and Kreia's forces have been very clearly shown to be DISLOYAL. They are Sith, after all, and have clearly betrayed her in the past in favor of following the other 2 Sith Lords...so why would anyone think it is Revan's forces that would abandon him and not hers?

Kreia's has one advantage here, the Mass Shadow Generator making landing on the planet difficult (even though I thought the OP said "No superweapons, e.g. Mass Shadow Generator...") but that can only count for so much when she is clearly disadvantaged in every other way that matters. And even with that taken into account, Revan has numerous victory conditions that are extremely likely to occur. Kreia has one: she gets to 1v1 Revan in the place she's most powerful, which would be achieved through the contrived coincidence of ALL of their forces dying in one battle. So who's winning this fight? It seems pretty clear to me...
That's exactly what I've been saying. However you've added some new points to this discussion.

The thing (I believe that this is the most important thing here) is the bombardment.
Let's look at the bombardment:
Is there a lot of space debris floating around? Yes
Is the MSG still active? Yes (however it seems it might be violating Kaggath rules)

So yeah... a bombardment is gonna be costly, you'd end up loosing several ships BUT:
- you could program droids to pilot the ships
- the ships would still be able to fire some rounds off before they were downed
- when they're being downed, the pilots (droids) could aim the ship at the Acadamy.

So the damage that Revan can inflict from a bombardment is gonna be huge. If he has to throw half of his fleet at the planet, it'll be worth it. At this point; he lands his Jedi and overwhelms Traya.

But I liked your point about Revan offering Traya's men/Sith the chance to surrender. Doubtlessly many of them would do this. And many of the ones who didn't would be starved.

Beni: I changed my mind. I think Revan wins this. Unless you somehow rule out the bombardments, then there really isn't a way for Traya to win.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 08:14 AM | #227
I'd like to add to the bombardment thing:
- Revan can also land any combat droids that he possesses
- As the fleet is bombarding (or ship chucking) Malachor, Revan can land at the desired point. This will prevent Traya from setting up all her ambushes and what-not due to the fact that her and her Sith will be under fire.

So Revan, along with nearly all of his Jedi and any combat droid he has is gonna land on Malachor, without any initial ambushes. Also, they'll be facing the remains of the Trayus Acadamy, which will have been shot at, and crushed with ships. I'm confident Revan can win from there on. Heck, with all that debris floating around, Revan could find a way to chuck THAT at Malachor, instead of his own ships. So the bombardment could look like this:
Firepower of the ships for as long as they can remain in orbit
+ debris that they could chuck debris at Malachor
+ ships that they chuck at Malachor
+ blockade which starves out the weaker Sith
= hardly any remains of Traya's army

Also: Beni says it'd be tuff to set up a bombardment. But don't forget that Revan is a great tactician. He's studied this stuff.

And you know what? If worst comes to worst, Revan will BREED 'EM OUT!! Due to lack of enough Jedi, he'll sit back, and make some Jedi babies, train those Jedi babies, and then attack!
LOL I'm totally kidding. That'd be so hilarious.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 08:52 AM | #228
Question: Is chemical warfare against the Kaggath rules? If not, Revan could simply chuck a virus or something down on Malachor.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.29.2012 , 10:53 AM | #229
DEVELOPMENT:

OK I just got on the wiki, looked up Malachor V, and found (and remembered) that the MSG had to be activated by Bao-dur's probe! This means that the MSG would, indeed, not be active during this battle.

This provides further proof that Revan is gonna be able to bomb the crap out of Malachor V.

So yes, the gravity is unstable, but it's not gonna be much danger to a ship, unless the ship stays there for a while.

But in reality, MSG or not, Revan wins this.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.29.2012 , 11:27 AM | #230
This talk of bombardment is foolish at best. If we are under the impression that Revan knows Traya is at Malachor, then Traya knows he is coming.

As soon as Revan's fleet comes out of hyperspace, they begin the bombardment. They aim wildly in an attempt to hit the Academy. Suddenly, the Triumvirate fleet comes out of hyperspace behind Revan's fleet. Caught off-guard, Revan's fleet takes heavy losses as they turn to engage the enemy fleet. But by the time they turn around, the enemy has vanished. But not before Assassins sneak onboard a couple of Revan's ships.

The bombardment resumes, but suddenly, multiple Haamerhead frigates fire upon their allies. The Assassins have taken control of multiple frigates and are firing on the Republic ships. But then the Triumvirate fleet returns. The Assassin ships and the Triumvirate fleet quickly defeat the Republic fleet.

Revan doesn't get a chance to bombard the Academy.
Added Chapter 66 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus