Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 08:49 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Now there is a way for Revan to win this. But it would require a lot of things to line up perfectly.

First, Revan has to be able to quickly counter the Sith Assassins after their first strike. This is possible, but nothing is ever certain. If he can at least severely limit the Assassins capabilities, he can keep his fleet in shape.

Second, he has to keep his soldiers up to par psychologically. The threat of the Assassins still remains, which can cause psychological issues for the men. It is quite possible for Revan to keep his men sane.

Third, he has to take out the Ravager. The Ravager is Traya's greatest military weapon. If Revan can trap the Ravager and destroy it, he gains a huge step towards victory.

Fourth, he has to ensure the loyalty of his men. This is nearly impossible. Traya can use the Dark Side to manipulate a large faction of Revan's top officials over to her side, or even turn Revan's allies against him. If Revan can keep his men loyal, he takes another step towards victory.

Fifth, He needs the forces to take Malachor. This is not easy. The number of Sith at the Academy will not easily fall. If he can rally the necessary forces to attack Malachor, he can win.

Sixth, he has to be able to beat Traya. Again, not easy, almost impossible. In an all-out battle, Traya gets the benefit of Malachor's Dark energies in addition to her ability to Sever Force and drain Force. If Revan can beat her, it will be through lightsaber skill. But that didn't save Kavar, who is a better duelist than Traya in my opinion. Fighting Traya is an uphill battle and almost impossible to win.
Not ALL of those have to happen for Revan to achieve victory.

Besides, there are other ways (as I've argued and explained).

Also - Revan is more then capable of not only defending his men from the assassins, but he is capable of creating his own assassin group. How do we know this? Well, he created the group that Kreia is using, So in this since, Revan understands how to train/use these assassins at least as well as Kreia.

I'm going to try to sum up my argument here:
- Revan's men/fleet are more numerous
- Revan is a better tactician when it comes to legit battlefield tactics. Kriea says so herself.
- Revan's men are extremely loyal to him. The proof of this is in the fact that they turned due to him.
- Revan is capable of adopting assassin/guerilla warfare tactics due to being the guy who created Traya's assassins. Even if Revan doesn't create his own assassins, he is obviously knowledgable of this kind of warfare, and would find a way to defend his men from assassin techniques
- Revan has WAY better resources/logistics due to the Republic
- Revan (I think - not sure about this one) is better one-on-one then Kreia (however on Malachor V Kreia would win)

Revan for the win.

I realize some of you guys disagree with this, but I feel that this is legitamently canon-supported.

P.S. Sorry if I ever come off as pissed during this Kaggath. I'm simply deep in debate mode.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 08:51 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
wat? What kind of argument is this?

She is a teacher, so yes, she does talk, but she does more than talk, she's not some overblown windbag, she built the sith Triumverate, put two of the most powerful perversions of nature under her command and when they overthrew her, as all Sith do, she humbled them right back down with the crew of a small stock freighter. She used every bit of power available to her but not without reason, she did not wantonly drain planets like Nihilus which ultimately was HIS downfall. She did not just wantonly sever every force-user from the force, that would give up her abilities of discression and deception.
Sorry but she didn't build the Sith Triumverate. Darth Revan built it.

Girdeux's Avatar


Girdeux
11.27.2012 , 08:51 PM | #103
wait, why are people even discussing the use of the Ravager when only Nihilius with his power could hold the ship together?

No nihilus = no Ravager.

YoshiRaphElan's Avatar


YoshiRaphElan
11.27.2012 , 08:53 PM | #104
If it came down to a fight, Revan. Kreia's not a fighter. Even so, Revan's a great strategist. Kreia, on the other hand, is a manipulator.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 08:58 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Not ALL of those have to happen for Revan to achieve victory.

Besides, there are other ways (as I've argued and explained).

Also - Revan is more then capable of not only defending his men from the assassins, but he is capable of creating his own assassin group. How do we know this? Well, he created the group that Kreia is using, So in this since, Revan understands how to train/use these assassins at least as well as Kreia.

I'm going to try to sum up my argument here:
- Revan's men/fleet are more numerous
- Revan is a better tactician when it comes to legit battlefield tactics. Kriea says so herself.
- Revan's men are extremely loyal to him. The proof of this is in the fact that they turned due to him.
- Revan is capable of adopting assassin/guerilla warfare tactics due to being the guy who created Traya's assassins. Even if Revan doesn't create his own assassins, he is obviously knowledgable of this kind of warfare, and would find a way to defend his men from assassin techniques
- Revan has WAY better resources/logistics due to the Republic
- Revan (I think - not sure about this one) is better one-on-one then Kreia (however on Malachor V Kreia would win)

Revan for the win.

I realize some of you guys disagree with this, but I feel that this is legitamently canon-supported.

P.S. Sorry if I ever come off as pissed during this Kaggath. I'm simply deep in debate mode.
Sure, Revan has all of those things, but you are ignoring Traya's advantages.

Remember that this is Jedi Knight Revan. The Revan that doesn't know about these assassins and doesn't know what makes them so effective. He could create his own assassins, but they would pale in comparison to Traya's.

Traya's forces are much more powerful. Her fleet is much more powerful than Revan's standard Hammerhead-class vessels. She has powerful Sith at her command that almost destroyed the Jedi Order.

Her forces are loyal to her as well. They are servants of the Dark Side and of her. It is not as easy for Revan to convert Traya's forces as it would be for her to convert his.

Revan has logistics on his side, but that can mean nothing when Traya turns his men against him.

In a one-on-one fight, Traya will win. Since the battle will take place on Malachor, Traya will beat Revan.

This is an uphill battle for Revan. It is not a clear victory for either side, but Traya would win in the long run.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 09:00 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Sorry but she didn't build the Sith Triumverate. Darth Revan built it.
Um... no? Traya found the Sith remnants and united them. She then created the Sith Triumvirate with Nihilus and Sion. Revan didn't create it. He created the oppurtunity, but not the actual organization.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 09:04 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by YoshiRaphElan View Post
If it came down to a fight, Revan. Kreia's not a fighter. Even so, Revan's a great strategist. Kreia, on the other hand, is a manipulator.
Traya has something more than manipulation and the Darkside of the Force going for her, she has cunning and understanding... understanding of battle and the consequences of every action.

Even at the height of his power, Revan was blind and unable to see past his glory, his vision. This is demonstrated by the Mandalorian wars when he chases them into the unknown regions and discovers the Sith empire, falling under the Emperor's control.

His short-sightedness is demonstrated again when he returns to known space and broke free from the Emperor's mind control. It is hypothesized by Kreia that Revan did not intend to conquer the Republic but save it by unifying the galaxy and preparing for the Sith's assault, under his banner. His downfall here was his lack of understanding of the culture he was now basked in; the Sith-Betrayal, by his Apprentice Malak.

After Malak's betrayal comes the physical memory loss, where he was short-sighted because of his inability to remember the past. Imagine if he knew of the empire that would come, do you think he would want the Star Forge destroyed?

And the final example of Revan being blind: his defeat at the Foundry... justification of exterminating an entire culture, an entire SPECIES, and being ganked by 4 lesser heroes of the Sith Empire.

Darth Traya did not have this fault, this short-sightedness. She always had a plan, always thought days, weeks, months... years ahead, and the one time she did not understand, she did not see, with Meetra Surik trying to unify the Jedi, she figured it out and tried to adjust accordingly.

Strategy is more than good leadership, and a good General is more than natural charisma.

As far as a 1 on 1 fight... that has already been debated, I have yet to see any canon Revan powers that match Traya's abilities to sever the force, force drain, exploit shatterpoints, manipulate wounds, etc.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 09:05 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Girdeux View Post
wait, why are people even discussing the use of the Ravager when only Nihilius with his power could hold the ship together?

No nihilus = no Ravager.
We cannot use Nihilus, but Nihilus' powerbase and ship and bases are belong to us. But I understand, we have to not allow super weapons because that would make the match a very 1-sided fist fight with Traya as the clear victor.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 09:06 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Sorry but she didn't build the Sith Triumverate. Darth Revan built it.
Nooooooooope
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Triumvirate

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 09:08 PM | #110
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
Traya has something more than manipulation and the Darkside of the Force going for her, she has cunning and understanding... understanding of battle and the consequences of every action.

Even at the height of his power, Revan was blind and unable to see past his glory, his vision. This is demonstrated by the Mandalorian wars when he chases them into the unknown regions and discovers the Sith empire, falling under the Emperor's control.

His short-sightedness is demonstrated again when he returns to known space and broke free from the Emperor's mind control. It is hypothesized by Kreia that Revan did not intend to conquer the Republic but save it by unifying the galaxy and preparing for the Sith's assault, under his banner. His downfall here was his lack of understanding of the culture he was now basked in; the Sith-Betrayal, by his Apprentice Malak.

After Malak's betrayal comes the physical memory loss, where he was short-sighted because of his inability to remember the past. Imagine if he knew of the empire that would come, do you think he would want the Star Forge destroyed?

And the final example of Revan being blind: his defeat at the Foundry... justification of exterminating an entire culture, an entire SPECIES, and being ganked by 4 lesser heroes of the Sith Empire.

Darth Traya did not have this fault, this short-sightedness. She always had a plan, always thought days, weeks, months... years ahead, and the one time she did not understand, she did not see, with Meetra Surik trying to unify the Jedi, she figured it out and tried to adjust accordingly.

Strategy is more than good leadership, and a good General is more than natural charisma.

As far as a 1 on 1 fight... that has already been debated, I have yet to see any canon Revan powers that match Traya's abilities to sever the force, force drain, exploit shatterpoints, manipulate wounds, etc.
^This

Traya would use her forces to give Revan's forces the run-around, while she slowly turned Revan's forces against him. Just because she isn't a general doesn't mean she doesn't understand war and battle strategies. In fact, her ability to see the future while on Malachor would come in handy here. She could see exactly what Revan would do and adjust accordingly. Revan can't fight that.
Added Chapter 29 to The Shadows Fall
"You felt it; the power of hate. The power of the Dark Side. Your eyes are opened. You see now. The power burns more brightly, stronger on the Dark Side. Despite what the Council had taught you, you now know the truth."- Count Dooku