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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 05:15 PM | #41
Traya does what she does best, manipulates Revan's best men, generals and Jedi, then turn them on him, chaos is sown through the Republic, all the while the Sith are killing off or corrupting the Jedi whilst Revan is busy fighting himself, I think that Traya could easily manipulate Malak into betraying Revan, I think she could also manipulate Karath and the others into throwing the Republic fleet into a paranoid delusion.

It would be very easy and very effective, the only question now is, is Sion allowed here? if he is, then he is another pawn that would very effectively kill any and all Jedi he came across, including Jedi Knight Revan.

I also believe that Traya herself could easily dispatch Jedi Knight Revan, she would play her mind games and could use some simple one-hit kill powers like Sever Force, Force Drain and other things, I can see her overwhelming him rather simply, many people vastly underestimate Traya's power.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 05:19 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
she has a fleet. Revan's is much, MUCH bigger.
But also not nearly as effective.

Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
EDIT: And what army she does have is not nearly enough to wage a full out war.
Nihillius's fleet lasted a grand total of one battle. And they lost it. Against the Republic.
Nihilus' fleet effectively destroyed the colony of Katarr, which WAS defended by multiple hammerhead cruisers and was only destroyed by the actions of the Mandalorians and the Jedi Exile sabotaging it.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 05:19 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You make a good point. I'll grant you that.

OK so it seems we've narrowed down the possible scenarios of this battle. Now I feel we've determined that Revan is too smart fully attack Malachor V. He could infiltrate, but that's another matter. And as for Traya, she's too smart to engage Revan in open warfare.

So what's gonna happen? Traya is gonna stay at Malachor V for the most part. This gives us that prolonged war we've been talking about. With that in mind, I'll elaborate.

Let's look at what COULD happen in a prolonged war:
1. Traya wins due to her assassins unbalancing Revan's army and creating chaos. This is unlikely due to Revan leadership and overall charisma. I feel he could keep his men in check.
2. Traya and her army begin to starve and experience an extreme lack of supplies. Many things could happen here, but they all mean victory for Revan.
3. After a long time, Revan figures a way to infiltrate Malachor V. This could end in many ways, but it would likely spell victory for Revan.

Once again, I feel that the only way Traya wins is through a BIG mistake on Revan's part.
If Revan can keep his men in check that would restore an advantage to him. However, the "starve the enemy" startegy wouldn't work. It would work on her soldiers, but the Sith there would survive. The Dark Side would keep them alive. Once Revan feels that this strategy is not working, he has to attack Malachor. Either with his army, or solo. Either way, the Dark energies of Malachor will be his undoing.

These energies are what corrupted him in the first place, and will do so once again. Malachor is a powerful Nexus of Dark Side energies, and these energies would corrupt many of Revan's Jedi and turn them against him. This would lead to Revan's forces fighting amongst themselves while the Sith grow stronger. Eventually, Revan would stand with but a few followers. The Dark energies would corrupt or destroy many of his followers.

So now Revan has only a few Jedi and soldiers with him to enter the Trayus Academy. An Academy filled with Sith Lords. If Revan managed to make it through, he would be the only survivor of his troupe. He would enter the Trayus Core and face Darth Traya, who would break him. Empowered by the Trayus Core and the power of Malachor, Revan would either win barely or be corrupted and join Traya. Either way, Revan would be corrupted by the Dark Side.
Added Chapter 40 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:20 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Traya does what she does best, manipulates Revan's best men, generals and Jedi, then turn them on him, chaos is sown through the Republic, all the while the Sith are killing off or corrupting the Jedi whilst Revan is busy fighting himself, I think that Traya could easily manipulate Malak into betraying Revan, I think she could also manipulate Karath and the others into throwing the Republic fleet into a paranoid delusion.

It would be very easy and very effective, the only question now is, is Sion allowed here? if he is, then he is another pawn that would very effectively kill any and all Jedi he came across, including Jedi Knight Revan.

I also believe that Traya herself could easily dispatch Jedi Knight Revan, she would play her mind games and could use some simple one-hit kill powers like Sever Force, Force Drain and other things, I can see her overwhelming him rather simply, many people vastly underestimate Traya's power.
Beni said that people like Malak, Karath, and Sion wouldn't be in the fight.

I feel that Revan's men are too loyal to him (he's the one that turned them in the first place) to go to Traya's side easily. Revan's men (for the most part) just aren't gonna turn easily.

Also (I fell), Revan is too good a leader to let his fleet fall into this utter chaos that you've suggested.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 05:22 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :P

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.
She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.
Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, than other Jedi.
P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base
She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy
Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan
Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.
1) Nihilus' powerbase is Traya's powerbase. Though we cannot use Nihilus, his forces are still hers both at the beginning and the end of the Sith Triumverate.

2) Meetra Surik cannot be used, and the only reason she was able to defeat the Sith Assassins was because of her insensitivity to the force. That is explained after her first encounter with the assassins aboard the harbinger.
P.S. Yes it does. Learn a bit of Military history, paranoia, sleep deprivation, terrorism all have huge psychological impacts on wars.

3) Darth Traya has both Nihilus and Darth Sion on her side, as well as their power bases. We aren't allowed to use the other two Sith Lords but we are allowed access to their power bases. If this were a valid argument then I could also argue that Revan has no allies because his forces become darksiders and eventually he's just a hermit on a Rakata super weapon with just a few Jedi and Republic supporters.

4) No. Deception, betrayal, -stealth- are all effective weapons during wartime. She is the Lord of Betrayals because she has been betrayed, betrayed much more than she betrays, in fact. She is a cunning sith, her mind is her greatest asset, not her shtick for betrayal.

5) Yes, assassins because of their ability to easily kill Force Adepts, Meetra excluded because of her condition. This is a hypothetical battle scenario, meaning we can cut out the hesitation, cut out her fondness for Revan. At any rate, even if that were a valid point, everything Traya has done has been deliberate and without hesitation. Her decisiveness is one of her more memorable qualities.

She was the death of the Jedi Order and Revan's teacher. More than a match for him.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:26 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
If Revan can keep his men in check that would restore an advantage to him. However, the "starve the enemy" startegy wouldn't work. It would work on her soldiers, but the Sith there would survive. The Dark Side would keep them alive. Once Revan feels that this strategy is not working, he has to attack Malachor. Either with his army, or solo. Either way, the Dark energies of Malachor will be his undoing.

These energies are what corrupted him in the first place, and will do so once again. Malachor is a powerful Nexus of Dark Side energies, and these energies would corrupt many of Revan's Jedi and turn them against him. This would lead to Revan's forces fighting amongst themselves while the Sith grow stronger. Eventually, Revan would stand with but a few followers. The Dark energies would corrupt or destroy many of his followers.

So now Revan has only a few Jedi and soldiers with him to enter the Trayus Academy. An Academy filled with Sith Lords. If Revan managed to make it through, he would be the only survivor of his troupe. He would enter the Trayus Core and face Darth Traya, who would break him. Empowered by the Trayus Core and the power of Malachor, Revan would either win barely or be corrupted and join Traya. Either way, Revan would be corrupted by the Dark Side.
You make a good point. But as you said, the "starving" idea would only affect Traya's soldiers. With this in mind, Revan would throw everything he had at Malachor V. Without the support of the army, Traya and her students would fall. However they would take a TON of Revan's men with them to death due to the dark side nexus and all that. But even with the nexus, the Trayus Acadamy (by itself) cannot withstand everything Revan has.

Also - there are many more things that lead to Revan's fall. Not just what you named. There was the war, Malachor V and the Sith Emperor's brainwash stuff.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:27 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
Nihilus' fleet effectively destroyed the colony of Katarr, which WAS defended by multiple hammerhead cruisers and was only destroyed by the actions of the Mandalorians and the Jedi Exile sabotaging it.
Multiple Hammerhead Cruisers is not the Republic fleet.

The Jedi Exile and Mandos destroyed one ship. What about the rest of the fleet? Unless Traya's fleet is only one ship...?

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 05:28 PM | #48
Why is the biggest advantage of Traya's forces the power of conversion?

1. Conversion is a tossup at best because everyone has varying degrees of loyalties, it takes more effort to convert some than others, but most will convert given the proper motivation.
2. Charisma means nothing when assassins do what they do best- cripple the mid-level leadership, sabotage their ships, steal cruisers and turn the physical vessels against Revan's forces.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 05:30 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You make a good point. But as you said, the "starving" idea would only affect Traya's soldiers. With this in mind, Revan would throw everything he had at Malachor V. Without the support of the army, Traya and her students would fall. However they would take a TON of Revan's men with them to death due to the dark side nexus and all that. But even with the nexus, the Trayus Acadamy (by itself) cannot withstand everything Revan has.

Also - there are many more things that lead to Revan's fall. Not just what you named. There was the war, Malachor V and the Sith Emperor's brainwash stuff.
Malachor V was the crucible that kicked Revan down the path. If he fought Traya at the Trayus Core, he would lose. You underestimate Traya's power. Jedi Knight Revan is no match for Darth Traya.

Now if Revan threw everything he had at Malachor, you would see significant, even total, losses for both sides. It would eventually come down to Revan and Traya. And as I just said, Traya would win.
Added Chapter 40 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.27.2012 , 05:30 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Beni said that people like Malak, Karath, and Sion wouldn't be in the fight.
Then Traya is down one pawn and Revan is down half of his command structure, his effectiveness just took a big hit.

Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I feel that Revan's men are too loyal to him (he's the one that turned them in the first place) to go to Traya's side easily. Revan's men (for the most part) just aren't gonna turn easily.

Also (I fell), Revan is too good a leader to let his fleet fall into this utter chaos that you've suggested.
But Revan hasn't turned his men yet, they have never even been to Malachor V, Traya would be able to easily cripple his chain of command and remove his best generals, etc... leavimg him with no way to properly command his vast forces, it turns into a war of attrition where Revan's forces aren't going to get their supplies when needed, he isn't going to be around to command all of them at the same time AND his men are going to be wondering where entire divisions disappeared to overnight.

Revan is currently in a logistical nightmare that Traya will only ever make worse, his best generals/admirals were part of the reason he was so successful, then when Jedi start filling up Traya's forces, she starts have the force user numbers advantage, with Jedi turning to the Malachor teachigngs that had the Jedi destroyed in the first place.

Basically, the size of Revan's fleet is it's weakness, eventually he will be left with two choices, go turtle mode or attack full on, the first idea won't work because Traya would have already ground down the forces that Revan commanded, the second leads to the utter destruction of his fleet.

Revan is the Erwin Rommel here, but Traya is the Albert Speer, she can make something out of nothing.