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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.27.2012 , 04:27 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by ReiKai View Post
Last I checked, Traya doesn't really have an army. She has a group Sith Assassins and the Academy on Malachor V. She has no fleet, and the only means of travel that she had was when she jacked the Ebon Hawk. The Ravager was under control of Nihilus. Her 'army', if you can even call it that, is more like a small cult of followers. Revan, as a Jedi Knight in the Mandalorian Wars, was in command of a third of the Republic Navy. That's a substantial force.

Revan as the Dark Lord of the Sith, had an army consisting of what remained of the Republic Forces that followed him, as well as others who joined his cause after he fell to the Dark Side from Darth Vitiate's mind scrambling. According to the Revanites, during this time Revan trained a Thousand Dark Apprentices. As indicated, he either found Force Users and had them trained on Korriban, captured Jedi and converted them via torture, temptation and psychological tactics, or Jedi who willingly converted.

Some say Traya wins a space battle. That's quite impossible for her to do without a navy. Sure, she has her Sith assassins with stealth fields. But they need ships to board with. The reason why that ship at the Paragus Mining Colony was overrun, was because the Sith Assassins were on board the Ebon Hawk when they picked it up, and that's how they infiltrated. Now, even assuming such a tactic worked with the army under Revan's control, after one or two "Mysterious Losses", Revan would initiate new security measures and tactics that would nullify the Assassin's ability to infiltrate his vessels, thus eliminating them as a threat in space warfare.

It's already been indicated that Revan is a tactical genius and possessed great charisma and leadership skills. Traya herself was infatuated with him and Revan evolved the Republic's tactics and changed the face of warfare to combat the Mandalorian threat. Moves that were so surprising that Mandalore was thrown for a loop.

Revan's forces during these times beats Traya for numbers 100-1. In terms of personal power and skill, I can't even conceive of a time when Revan wasn't always more powerful than she was, except if it was Before he became a Jedi for the first time. As the Revanchist, as the Sith Lord, the Prodigal Knight or as Reborn Revan, he has always appeared to be at a level of power and skill tiers above and beyond anything Traya ever achieved.
Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.

Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):
1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.
Not as sound as you think. The Revanchists could easily be corrupted by Traya through capturing (via Sith assassins) and conversion (via Malachor) in this sense Traya erodes his armies by taking his Jedi, then uses these Jedi to erode his armies. Its an endless cycle of destruction!

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 04:40 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.


Not as sound as you think. The Revanchists could easily be corrupted by Traya through capturing (via Sith assassins) and conversion (via Malachor) in this sense Traya erodes his armies by taking his Jedi, then uses these Jedi to erode his armies. Its an endless cycle of destruction!
Let's look at Traya's and Revan's forces more deeply.

Obviously, they're mostly the same people. What changed? Well Traya's are evil and corrupted. Who corrupted them? REVAN.

They're love and loyalty to Revan is what took them to the dark side in the first place. So they won't be turning in this scenario (at least not many of them - 'cause obviously there are individuals who'd turn).

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 04:42 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You see, you kinda argued against yourself a little bit there.

Point: We agree that Revan would win the prolonged war. I'll work with that.

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):
1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.
2. She can engage Revan in a battle. This way, she loses. Period.
note: Traya's assassins are only gonna help (significantly) in a prolonged war. In a prolonged war, Revan will adapt to the assassins techniques, meaning that the assassin's usefulness is limited.

Now for Revan's options:
1. Attack Traya at Malachor V. If he devouted many of his men to such a battle, then he loses the war. But he know's his master too well for this to happen. What would likely happen here is that he'd send a small portion of his force to Malachor, they'd be destroyed, and Revan would learn his lesson. He wouldn't make the same mistake twice.
2. Revan attempts to get Traya into an open battle. IF it worked, he'd win the war.
3. Revan sits out the war, starving Traya out. This results in a victory for Revan.

In the end: Traya just doesn't have as many options. The only way she wins is by Revan making a BIG mistake, which isn't likely.

I have now made up my mind: it's Revan's battle to lose.
Granted Revan has a lot of options in this battle, but Traya's options are deceptive options. You are underestimating the effectiveness of psychological warfare. Once Revan devises tactics to limit the assassins, what remains is a psychological impact on the troops. You don't know where the assassins are, they could be right behind you, they could be watching you while you sleep. This causes a number of psychological issues for the troops. Paranoia, sleep depravation. These cause a serious impact on the mental fortitude of soldiers, causing lapses in judgment or even suicide, if a soldiers mental condition has worn away significantly. Such conditions can be damaging to an army.

But Revan does have options. Trying to wait out Traya could give him victory, but it could also destroy him. All Traya has to do is have her assassins pose a threat and the morale of Revan's forces will degrade significantly. This creates an opening for Traya. The only real threat to her Sith now would be the Jedi, and we know how effective assassins are against Jedi.

Revan's only option is to strike Malachor quick and hard, or prolong the suffering of his men. If he attacks Malachor, he will lose. Which brings us to this question: How does Revan win?

Not easy to answer. Attacking Malachor is foolish, and waiting Traya out will hurt his army moreso. The best thing to do is not fight. Draw her out and strike when she is not on Malachor. In this case, the decision by the Jedi Council to avoid fighting the Mandalorians is the best choice. Draw out the assassins and defeat them as they come, slowly wearing down Traya's forces until she is forced to send in the Sith Lords. Eventually, Traya will either give up or empty Malachor's Academy in an effort to win. Then Revan can strike.

But I think you also underestimate the power of the Force. Simply starving Traya and her forces would not work. The Force can sustain a being for any amount of time should they choose so. Traya could play the waiting game just as effectively.
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ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.27.2012 , 04:45 PM | #34
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Traya does have a fleet, remember the Battle of Telos IV? Nihilus didn't come alone, he had a fleet backing him. Basically Traya has what remains of Darth Revan's fleet, which is substantial enough for her stealthy/hit and run tactics.

And I don't know if your aware, or I've just misintepreted. But may I stress this is the Revan of the Mandalorians Wars - not Darth Revan. So he has no Sith, only Jedi. (which may I add, Traya could convert through use of Malachor and her Sith assassins) Your correct though, Revan does outnumber Traya in terms of forces. But I doubt this would be a straight up battle. Most likely Traya would use his forces against him, corrupting his Revanchists and making them fight against him.
That would be Nihilus' forces, not Traya's. The Kaggath is about Traya's power base, not Nihilus', and he tried to kill Traya. And last I saw, Traya didn't pick up the remnants of the Sith Army after Revan killed Malak. The StarForge was destroyed, much of the fleet was gone, and what was left was hunted down. If you're talking about what had been caught in the Gravity Weapon that ended Malachor V during the Mando Wars, that's not really a fleet. Barely a handful of ships. If any of them still functioned.

Also, even as Jedi Knight Revan, his tactics were superb and he's already mastered everything the Jedi Order could teach, including from Kreia. By this time, Revan had already taken the steps towards the dark side on his own after witnessing a vision of the Cathar's plight when he touched the fallen mandalorian womans mask, which he'd take for himself. That was the moment he called himself Revan. It has also been stated in the lore that during the Mandalorian Wars, Revan had visited Malachor V, Dantooine, Korriban, and other worlds where Star Maps had been found, and where the presence of the Dark Side was felt.

Revan is mentally too strong to be tricked by Traya and converted. The only reason Vitiate was able to do so was because Revan wasn't expecting the attack as the Imperial Guardswoman was supposed to help Malak and himself sneak into the Emperor's champers and assassinate him. Neither Revan nor Malak were aware that the Imperial Guard were all linked in a way to the Emperor and their assassination attempt was known to Vitiate before they even entered the building. Revan expected to catch Vitiate off-guard. Instead he was backstabbed by the ImpGuard and got mind-whammied by Vitiate along with Malak.

However, as we saw, this didn't last long. They didn't become Vitiate's puppets. Instead it, more or less, corrupted the pair and made them Sith Lords and Revan decided to conquer the Republic. And yet, despite falling to the Dark Side, Revan was still a tactical marvel and he did what he could to keep the infrastructure of the Republic intact. Unlike Malak who just scorched everything.

So, either way, I don't see Traya being able to overcome Revan, even while he was still a Jedi. Thousands of Jedi had followed him and joined him in the Mandalorian War. Most of'em only died when he ordered Meetra to use the gravity weapon on Malachor V.
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BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 04:56 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Let's look at Traya's and Revan's forces more deeply.

Obviously, they're mostly the same people. What changed? Well Traya's are evil and corrupted. Who corrupted them? REVAN.

They're love and loyalty to Revan is what took them to the dark side in the first place. So they won't be turning in this scenario (at least not many of them - 'cause obviously there are individuals who'd turn).
THis is so wrong. Yes, many were corrupted simply because of their loyalty to Revan, but it was more than just old war dogs fighting Revan's war, it was converted jedi. And they were converted by torture, brainwashing and the power of a given dark nexus- chiefly Malachor V post-mando wars. Atton Rand was one such agent for the empire that broke and converted Jedi.

Also, too much value is being placed on the power of longevity. Longevity in a conflict is nothing if you have no opponent to outlast. Remember that the Trayus Academy at Malachor V is hidden. Assuming they hold that advantage here, Traya's assassins can outlast Revan's forces no problem. Also, Malachor V is NOT a practical target for the Republic to engage because of its darkside power and hazardous environment to space craft. Yes, I am aware that WMD's aren't allowed, but the influence of the active, heavy and unnegotiable gravity and terrain of M5 makes using a fleet quite difficult.

Yes, Traya has a fleet, it is the remnant of of Darth Revan's Sith Fleet, and it is powerful enough to engage the Republic as well as TSF and their surprise Mandalorian and Onderonian allies at the battle of Telos. of course, the aim of Traya's fleet, under the command of Darth Nihilus, is to get Nihilus in place in order to feed off of the planet's life force. It can easily be used to engage Revan's fleet in the open and sabotage them from inside with superior boarding parties of assassins. Remember, we're not allowed to use Nihilus, but Nihilus' forces are under Traya's control... If we could use Nihilus, this would be a lulzy 1-sided fist fight.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:03 PM | #36
I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :P

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.
She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.
Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, then other Jedi.
P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base
She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy
Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan
Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.

BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 05:03 PM | #37
Seriously, you guys overestimate the power of a standard army and Revan's bloated reputation and SEVERELY underestimate the power of deception and Traya's Sith.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:03 PM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Granted Revan has a lot of options in this battle, but Traya's options are deceptive options. You are underestimating the effectiveness of psychological warfare. Once Revan devises tactics to limit the assassins, what remains is a psychological impact on the troops. You don't know where the assassins are, they could be right behind you, they could be watching you while you sleep. This causes a number of psychological issues for the troops. Paranoia, sleep depravation. These cause a serious impact on the mental fortitude of soldiers, causing lapses in judgment or even suicide, if a soldiers mental condition has worn away significantly. Such conditions can be damaging to an army.

But Revan does have options. Trying to wait out Traya could give him victory, but it could also destroy him. All Traya has to do is have her assassins pose a threat and the morale of Revan's forces will degrade significantly. This creates an opening for Traya. The only real threat to her Sith now would be the Jedi, and we know how effective assassins are against Jedi.

Revan's only option is to strike Malachor quick and hard, or prolong the suffering of his men. If he attacks Malachor, he will lose. Which brings us to this question: How does Revan win?

Not easy to answer. Attacking Malachor is foolish, and waiting Traya out will hurt his army moreso. The best thing to do is not fight. Draw her out and strike when she is not on Malachor. In this case, the decision by the Jedi Council to avoid fighting the Mandalorians is the best choice. Draw out the assassins and defeat them as they come, slowly wearing down Traya's forces until she is forced to send in the Sith Lords. Eventually, Traya will either give up or empty Malachor's Academy in an effort to win. Then Revan can strike.

But I think you also underestimate the power of the Force. Simply starving Traya and her forces would not work. The Force can sustain a being for any amount of time should they choose so. Traya could play the waiting game just as effectively.
You make a good point. I'll grant you that.

OK so it seems we've narrowed down the possible scenarios of this battle. Now I feel we've determined that Revan is too smart fully attack Malachor V. He could infiltrate, but that's another matter. And as for Traya, she's too smart to engage Revan in open warfare.

So what's gonna happen? Traya is gonna stay at Malachor V for the most part. This gives us that prolonged war we've been talking about. With that in mind, I'll elaborate.

Let's look at what COULD happen in a prolonged war:
1. Traya wins due to her assassins unbalancing Revan's army and creating chaos. This is unlikely due to Revan leadership and overall charisma. I feel he could keep his men in check.
2. Traya and her army begin to starve and experience an extreme lack of supplies. Many things could happen here, but they all mean victory for Revan.
3. After a long time, Revan figures a way to infiltrate Malachor V. This could end in many ways, but it would likely spell victory for Revan.

Once again, I feel that the only way Traya wins is through a BIG mistake on Revan's part.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 05:09 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Warren-Stride View Post
I'm confused why people think Traya would win... sorry Beni. :P

1.)Traya doesn't have a Fleet.
She didn't in KOTORII. The last I heard, Nillius was not working for Traya, but against her....

2.)Traya doesn't have an Army, she has Assassins.
Assassin that were all killed in one fell swoop by Meetra. I would assume Revan could kill them all himself, and if not him, then other Jedi.
P.S. Sleep deprevation and paranoia don't loose wars.

3.)Traya doesn't have a Power Base
She has no allies. None. Revan has the Jedi Order, Republic, and all it's allied worlds ready to support him. This is still a Kaggath, aka, powerbase battle.

4.) Traya doesn't have a Battle Stragegy
Traya is, wait for it, the Lord of Betrayal. She works from the shadows, plotting and planning. She betrays people, she doesn't run up and attack them with her lightsaber. If she is exposed and in an all-out war, she will loose her main advantage: secrecy.

5.) Traya has no way to Kill Revan
Assassins? Doubtful. 1v1 battle? I don't think Traya would do that, and if she did, Revan has the power to defeat her... I think. Cut off from the Force? Maybe, but Traya is awefully fond of Revan. "Heart of the Force" and whatnot. She might hestitate, and that would be it.

Traya has too many things working against herself. Nevermind Revan's forces, she isn't cut out for war period.
I agree with you completely EXCEPT about Traya's fleet. Nihliius' fleet would have been her's during this Kaggath. So she does have a army. Just not a big one.

Warren-Stride's Avatar


Warren-Stride
11.27.2012 , 05:11 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I agree with you completely EXCEPT about Traya's fleet. Nihliius' fleet would have been her's during this Kaggath. So she does have a army. Just not a big one.
My mistake then. I never really understood what was happening with Nihliius and Traya... oh well.

So she has a fleet. Revan's is much, MUCH bigger.

EDIT: And what army she does have is not nearly enough to wage a full out war.
Nihillius's fleet lasted a grand total of one battle. And they lost it. Against the Republic.

(Don't quote me, I'm going off what I remember from KOTORII, could very well be wrong, please correct me.)