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Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
Kaggath Series: Darth Traya vs Revan

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.27.2012 , 03:13 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Play nice now. While admittedly a flame war would make this thread my most popular to date - I don't want to cause any injury.

The problem here however with your argument is that your taking it more as a 1v1 battle, rather than a large scale Kaggath. There is more to consider than just Revan's power in the Force etc. I agree that Revan could best Traya, but he has to best her forces first. And on that field she can bring her other talents to bear. (Also any fight between these two would probably occur at Malachor - where Traya would have the advantage)

EDIT: IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT - PERSONAL INSULTS DO NOT COUNT AS ARGUMENTS, THEY WILL NOT WIN YOU ANY POINTS!
Well than I probably agree with BrandonSM on how he said it but really I am kinda unsure .

If Traya had full access which you took away , she would undoubtably win .
Sion would even eventually wear Revan down , there is no defense against someone that can literally keep coming at you and not die or weaken.
Nihilus would likely Beat Revan with his seemingly infinite ForceLightning , Force Sever , Force Drain .................but I am unsure of this only Because I cannot argue Revan's Abilities to defend against such skills.

As for Traya sith assassins , they were Revan's before they were hers . Its one of the many Reasons Revan gained control over the Republic so fast. So how do we compair the Same Assassins ?

I do not remember Traya having a Fleet , but we know Revan did .
Matter of Fact , Nihilus was rolling around in one of Revan's ships .

So really I cannot see how Traya would be able to defend herself outside of Nihilus and Sion which are her Golden boys that would undoubtably win the fight for her without question or as of yet because Drew sucked at putting forth Canon Abilities unlike Chris or whomever that Wrote KotoRII who wasted no time getting the Exile all Cannoned up.

I honestly believe if this is going to be a battle of Resources Nihilus and Sion should count and matter , not to argue the rules .


Edit . Now to think of it , this fight is kinda hard to put into place being the reasons the Republic was like it was at the time was
A. Revan's Empire
B. Malek's Empire
C. Nihilus and Sion finishing off everything else .

Maybe I am not giving Traya enough credit as she was a Teacher to Revan , Sion , Nihilus and the Exile .
I do think she is powerful and wise , and I love her character , I just do not see the winning edge unless we add in her two then Apprentices Nihilus and Sion .
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 03:20 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Woot Aurbere's "Revan is the worst weakest Hero of all time" and Masterme the defender !

Revan wins clearly.

Darth Traya was not that Powerful compaired to her Apprentices , not more powerful than certainly Nihilus , not of Sion , not of The Exile Meetra Surik , and not of Revan Period,

She was "A" Master of Revan and she was linked as such when she arrived at Macachor V , not because she was better . You have to remember they all though Revan was either dead or gone , at the time they were looking for someone of his level to lead them .
Exile if she was evil and arrived before Traya would have been that person .
******We have to remember She was a Jedi Master to him , which if you read his lore he had many . She did open his eyes unlike the others and gave him the type of thinking that we seen him have in "FOUNDRY" , but over all being someones Master as a Jedi is nothing on the page of being someones Master as a Sith or Darkjedi .......AND YOU KNOW THIS MANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN !******
Darth Traya is clearly not a WEAK or just Average Force User but in this , on a battle field of just the two . Revan would likely make her a freak like he did Malek .

She was a twister , a person who came in and tried to get in your head to show you what she see and how she want you to see it . Her Training to Revan is recordedly not of skills or powers but how the outlook of the Force and how he should think of those below him .
If you read all of Revan's lore in KotoR I and II , she taught him that the weaker were unworthy to live . He often displayed that when he would either convert a Jedi or kill them .

She practically worshiped Revan and everything he was and the only person compairable in her eyes was the Exile Meetra Surik . It is highly Doubtful with Darth Traya's way of thinking that she would of put Revan on such a Pedestal if he was weaker than her .
I know shes not really a Sithlord but most Sithlords do not like beings weaker than them , most do not respect Apprentices that are unable to kill them one day .

So in the end this thread is highly likely again underrate Revan and put him below every Forceuser of his time by the large population of Revan Haters .
Yeah... I don't think it was very good of you to come into a fresh debate and say what you did to Aurbere. He has yet to say anything disagreeble so far, so let's leave past arguments alone and have a legit debate.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 03:34 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I'm sure Traya could utilize her assassins in other ways. Sneaking them aboard Republic shuttles bound for capital ships. The utility these assassins have is great. And know that while the element of surprise would be lost after one or two instances of assassin encounters, that is an advantage in itself. Knowing that there are assassins lurking does more damage than the assassins themselves would do. Paranoia, sleep depravation, and other things would occur if they know Traya has assassins to use against them. This causes a whole host of problems for the Republic. Suddenly, you don't know what to do, you can almost feel them standing behind (even though they aren't really there). That alone can lead to Revan losing.

Traya, wise as she is, will no doubt make use of Malachor V to prevent Revan from fully defeating her. If Revan attempted to engage her at the Trayus Core, he would fall to the Dark Side. The Dark energies of Malachor, combined with Traya manipulating him, would cause him to join her, or even take control of Traya's forces. This gives Traya the victory.
I would agree with you that Revan COULD NOT beat Traya one-on-one at Malachor V. But he wouldn't have to do that.

Let's review the points we've made:

Revan's army is likely larger then Kreia's
Revan is a better leader WHEN it comes down to legit battles
Traya will likely use her assassins rather then get into a legit battle
Traya will likely stay at Malachor V - where Revan couldn't beat Traya in a duel do to the whole darkside nexus thing

Revan has a significant logistical advantage. Remember: he's commanding the Republic army - which (obviously) is owned by the Republic. The Republic is FAR more capable then Traya's empire when it comes to trade/resources and stuff. The Republic has been around for thousands of years, while Traya's army has only been around a few years. Traya purely commands an army, not (many) citizens. Citizens = money. Money = good.

So in a prolonged war, Revan's army will be much better off then Traya's. In fact, instead of engaging Traya at her base (Malachor V), Revan could simply wait/starve her out. So in a prolonged war, I believe Revan wins it due to logistics.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.27.2012 , 03:37 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Yeah... I don't think it was very good of you to come into a fresh debate and say what you did to Aurbere. He has yet to say anything disagreeble so far, so let's leave past arguments alone and have a legit debate.
Let me steal a Quote " I am not going to be all Jedish here"
Yes I was wrong but ahead of the game , you think they were worried about the name calling in the last threads as they acted first .
Its a tired arguement and I am just like them tired of the debat -
Sorry Aurbere , I was wrong to jump too it . I guess is the only right way is allow them first blows.
Give a Man a Mask and he'll become his true self

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.27.2012 , 03:41 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
I would agree with you that Revan COULD NOT beat Traya one-on-one at Malachor V. But he wouldn't have to do that.

Let's review the points we've made:

Revan's army is likely larger then Kreia's
Revan is a better leader WHEN it comes down to legit battles
Traya will likely use her assassins rather then get into a legit battle
Traya will likely stay at Malachor V - where Revan couldn't beat Traya in a duel do to the whole darkside nexus thing

Revan has a significant logistical advantage. Remember: he's commanding the Republic army - which (obviously) is owned by the Republic. The Republic is FAR more capable then Traya's empire when it comes to trade/resources and stuff. The Republic has been around for thousands of years, while Traya's army has only been around a few years. Traya purely commands an army, not (many) citizens. Citizens = money. Money = good.

So in a prolonged war, Revan's army will be much better off then Traya's. In fact, instead of engaging Traya at her base (Malachor V), Revan could simply wait/starve her out. So in a prolonged war, I believe Revan wins it due to logistics.
Well, obviously Revan is going to win the prolonged battle. But Traya, wise as she is, knows this and would do what she can to defeat Revan's forces with the people she has. Traya can mobilize assassins to infiltrate Revan's forces and wear them down. The threat of infiltration impacts an army greater than the actual infiltration. All that needs to be there is the possibility for Traya's assassins to be lurking and the Republic soldiers will slowly go mad.

Revan would win a prolonged war, but that doesn't mean that it will happen. If Revan tried to wait her out, he would see his troops slowly fall apart. Traya would turn Revan's strategy against him.
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BlazingShadow's Avatar


BlazingShadow
11.27.2012 , 03:54 PM | #26
this fight is like a bear fighting a bear trap... revan being the furrier of the two.

If it's Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, then he is at a distinct disadvantage for one reason:

The army of the Galactic Republic during the Mandalorian wars battled Mandalorians, who preferred straight fights and epic battles. Traya's shtick is to stick the knife in the back and turn it, turn it and turn it.

Traya and her assassins can blind others to her presence, particularly Force Sensitives. Traya's assassins also exploit the Force, becoming significantly stronger when in the presence of Force adepts. documented -overwhelming- success of her assassins on the Harbinger suggest that this is not even a fight but a slaughter. Jedi strength within Revan's forces as well as the mass of his troops are nullified by the fact that they aren't fighting their intended enemy but instead a ghost, masters of subterfuge.

In a one-on-one fight, hypothetically I feel it would be a very close fight because of Revan's power in the force. However it may be entirely possible for Kreia to simply kill him by severing his connection to the force, as easily as she did with the three jedi masters at Dantooine, or to create a Force bond and damn the both of them if she dies. Depends on the setup.

The Kaggath fight goes to Traya because she is not the predictable enemy that the Mandalorians were. Her assassins, with and without her, exponged the Jedi from the galaxy. Revan, as we saw at the foundry, is just more prey totally dependant on the Force.

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 04:05 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by BlazingShadow View Post
this fight is like a bear fighting a bear trap... revan being the furrier of the two.

If it's Revan during the Mandalorian Wars, then he is at a distinct disadvantage for one reason:

The army of the Galactic Republic during the Mandalorian wars battled Mandalorians, who preferred straight fights and epic battles. Traya's shtick is to stick the knife in the back and turn it, turn it and turn it.

Traya and her assassins can blind others to her presence, particularly Force Sensitives. Traya's assassins also exploit the Force, becoming significantly stronger when in the presence of Force adepts. documented -overwhelming- success of her assassins on the Harbinger suggest that this is not even a fight but a slaughter. Jedi strength within Revan's forces as well as the mass of his troops are nullified by the fact that they aren't fighting their intended enemy but instead a ghost, masters of subterfuge.

In a one-on-one fight, hypothetically I feel it would be a very close fight because of Revan's power in the force. However it may be entirely possible for Kreia to simply kill him by severing his connection to the force, as easily as she did with the three jedi masters at Dantooine, or to create a Force bond and damn the both of them if she dies. Depends on the setup.

The Kaggath fight goes to Traya because she is not the predictable enemy that the Mandalorians were. Her assassins, with and without her, exponged the Jedi from the galaxy. Revan, as we saw at the foundry, is just more prey totally dependant on the Force.
You make a good point.

ReiKai's Avatar


ReiKai
11.27.2012 , 04:14 PM | #28
Last I checked, Traya doesn't really have an army. She has a group Sith Assassins and the Academy on Malachor V. She has no fleet, and the only means of travel that she had was when she jacked the Ebon Hawk. The Ravager was under control of Nihilus. Her 'army', if you can even call it that, is more like a small cult of followers. Revan, as a Jedi Knight in the Mandalorian Wars, was in command of a third of the Republic Navy. That's a substantial force.

Revan as the Dark Lord of the Sith, had an army consisting of what remained of the Republic Forces that followed him, as well as others who joined his cause after he fell to the Dark Side from Darth Vitiate's mind scrambling. According to the Revanites, during this time Revan trained a Thousand Dark Apprentices. As indicated, he either found Force Users and had them trained on Korriban, captured Jedi and converted them via torture, temptation and psychological tactics, or Jedi who willingly converted.

Some say Traya wins a space battle. That's quite impossible for her to do without a navy. Sure, she has her Sith assassins with stealth fields. But they need ships to board with. The reason why that ship at the Paragus Mining Colony was overrun, was because the Sith Assassins were on board the Ebon Hawk when they picked it up, and that's how they infiltrated. Now, even assuming such a tactic worked with the army under Revan's control, after one or two "Mysterious Losses", Revan would initiate new security measures and tactics that would nullify the Assassin's ability to infiltrate his vessels, thus eliminating them as a threat in space warfare.

It's already been indicated that Revan is a tactical genius and possessed great charisma and leadership skills. Traya herself was infatuated with him and Revan evolved the Republic's tactics and changed the face of warfare to combat the Mandalorian threat. Moves that were so surprising that Mandalore was thrown for a loop.

Revan's forces during these times beats Traya for numbers 100-1. In terms of personal power and skill, I can't even conceive of a time when Revan wasn't always more powerful than she was, except if it was Before he became a Jedi for the first time. As the Revanchist, as the Sith Lord, the Prodigal Knight or as Reborn Revan, he has always appeared to be at a level of power and skill tiers above and beyond anything Traya ever achieved.
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MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.27.2012 , 04:24 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well, obviously Revan is going to win the prolonged battle. But Traya, wise as she is, knows this and would do what she can to defeat Revan's forces with the people she has. Traya can mobilize assassins to infiltrate Revan's forces and wear them down. The threat of infiltration impacts an army greater than the actual infiltration. All that needs to be there is the possibility for Traya's assassins to be lurking and the Republic soldiers will slowly go mad.

Revan would win a prolonged war, but that doesn't mean that it will happen. If Revan tried to wait her out, he would see his troops slowly fall apart. Traya would turn Revan's strategy against him.
You see, you kinda argued against yourself a little bit there.

Point: We agree that Revan would win the prolonged war. I'll work with that.

Let's look at the possiblities at Traya's options ('cause options win wars):
1. She can sit at Malachor V and attempt to erode Revan's army slowly with. But as I've already explained, Revan's logistics are too good to be eroded like so.
2. She can engage Revan in a battle. This way, she loses. Period.
note: Traya's assassins are only gonna help (significantly) in a prolonged war. In a prolonged war, Revan will adapt to the assassins techniques, meaning that the assassin's usefulness is limited.

Now for Revan's options:
1. Attack Traya at Malachor V. If he devouted many of his men to such a battle, then he loses the war. But he know's his master too well for this to happen. What would likely happen here is that he'd send a small portion of his force to Malachor, they'd be destroyed, and Revan would learn his lesson. He wouldn't make the same mistake twice.
2. Revan attempts to get Traya into an open battle. IF it worked, he'd win the war.
3. Revan sits out the war, starving Traya out. This results in a victory for Revan.

In the end: Traya just doesn't have as many options. The only way she wins is by Revan making a BIG mistake, which isn't likely.

I have now made up my mind: it's Revan's battle to lose.

Darkondo's Avatar


Darkondo
11.27.2012 , 04:24 PM | #30
Quote:
Darth Traya was not that Powerful compaired to her Apprentices , not more powerful than certainly Nihilus , not of Sion , not of The Exile Meetra Surik , and not of Revan Period
This is besides th point sort of but Traya is stronger than Sion by the time she returns to Malachor V, if you got the full content of KOTOR2 then you would be able to see that here's a link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0BSSQrXebE