Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.27.2012 , 03:56 AM | #1251
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
I disagree here, because often I find the best players are... simply the best players. Whether in a Premade or PuG, they excel. However, many of the best players understand the teamwork is the higher level of skill, and actively participate in said groups.

Just as PuG'ing it means you are unlikely to receive support, it is just as likely your opponents will not. So while you may excel (in skill/gear/class) 1 vs 1 situations (or even 2 vs 1) you may never have to deal with (or deal with consistently) situations where your enemies are supporting each other. Likewise, you may not know what to do -when supported.- I've seen healers run away from their guard, their guardian not sticking near them, healers still trying to kite (and thus not healing) when their attackers are being peeled, and perhaps my favorite (as a healer) is the number of PuG's who run -away- from the healer. (Then wonder why they weren't healed.)

Quite frankly, Grouping vs. Not Grouping has nothing to do with -personal- skill, and bad players will not excel in groups. Groups don't make good players, good players make groups.
Uhm, someone didn't read the title of the thread? The whole point of this thread was that PuG's are running into premades way too often and it's ruining their experience/making them quit altogether/preventing them from having fun etc. To say that PuGs in fact *don't* face premades in a thread that is specifically discussing the PuG vs Premade situation is hypocritical to say the least.

If I queue solo I almost always run into a premade group of 3-4 people (99% Imperial). If there are so many out there that I get one in every match, why not just let them queue against each other? I'm pretty sure that queues are popping so often on my server now (hell we even have a queue to log on sometimes!) that it could reliably support a premade and a solo bracket.

Also as someone pointed out, a solo player has to be far more vigilant and observant than a premade player because he cannot count on heals, guard, rescue cc etc. He cannot say, hey check that thing out over there, he has to go and do everything by himself. Therefore a solo player carries a far heavier burden and has to go through a much sharper learning curve to be successful than a premade player who is told everything by his team members. In the end it does tend to make them better and more knowledgeable players overall.

Just a personal experience: A few days ago I ran into my favorite Imperial premade that always queues with 2 healers, 1 tankasin and 1 focus mara. We had no healers, the enemy team had 2. It was CW and we lasted surprisingly long. In the end I ended up doing around 650k damage (of which at least 300k went into one of their healers) but had less than 5 kills while at the same time I died 14 times. I finished second behind the said focus mara who did 670k damage and had over 40 kills but only died twice.

Now let me ask this of you: which one requires more skill? Doing 670k damage when you have 2(!!!) guarded pocket healers who allow you to run into the thickest mobs and survive virtually everything and be up for 99% of the match? Or doing 650k damage with 0 healers, 0 guards when you had to do a corpse run 14 times!

Being in a premade where everything is handed to you on a sliver platter is *NOT* a higher level of skill. When you have to do everything by yourself is.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.27.2012 , 04:43 AM | #1252
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Uhm, someone didn't read the title of the thread? The whole point of this thread was that PuG's are running into premades way too often and it's ruining their experience/making them quit altogether/preventing them from having fun etc. To say that PuGs in fact *don't* face premades in a thread that is specifically discussing the PuG vs Premade situation is hypocritical to say the least.
Hypocritical: professing feelings or virtues one does not have.

<.< You should probably understand big words before you use them. You might be able to use the word Oxymoron:
"A figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction" or more appropriately, just say it's a contradictory statement.

Better yet, you could actually understand what I said, which is that Pugging it gives no guarantee you will face "more" situations where your enemies are supported, and it also means you are unlikely to know what to do -when- supported, or how to -support-. You think just having healers -magically- makes it easy for everyone? You've got to protect those healers, peel off of them, and your healers need to know when they should be healing, and when they should be trying to survive (aka, when to trust either someone else will heal them, or that a tank/dps is going to peel off of them.)

Further more, in a Solo-only bracket the chance of a PuG needing "more awareness" is also lower, because their opponents are just as likely to not be supported as they are. The -highest- form of pvp or the form that takes the greatest skill level is a full team vs a full team.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
If I queue solo I almost always run into a premade group of 3-4 people (99% Imperial). If there are so many out there that I get one in every match, why not just let them queue against each other? I'm pretty sure that queues are popping so often on my server now (hell we even have a queue to log on sometimes!) that it could reliably support a premade and a solo bracket.
If your queue times are good, great! Doesn't mean everyone's are, or that the queue times are great 24/7. A matchmaking system that -actually- matches on a criteria (which btw, is different from a true queue system) would achieve the same thing a split bracket would, without -any- of the negatives and allowing for the shortest possible queue times when population/participation is low.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Also as someone pointed out, a solo player has to be far more vigilant and observant than a premade player because he cannot count on heals, guard, rescue cc etc. He cannot say, hey check that thing out over there, he has to go and do everything by himself. Therefore a solo player carries a far heavier burden and has to go through a much sharper learning curve to be successful than a premade player who is told everything by his team members. In the end it does tend to make them better and more knowledgeable players overall.
Because the solo player can not count on such things, they don't know what to do when said things happen. *Snickers* Like the person who runs off the top ramp cause they weren't expecting a rescue. Furthermore, while Solo play -might- (I'm not entirely sold on that) make a player more self reliant, they also don't know how to work on a team. I see it all the time, 4 people head for the same objective (when the plan should be 3 to the first, 1 to the second). I've noticed every stealther thinks it's their job to ninja cap, and so you have 2-3 players tripping over each other trying to ninja cap, when 2 stealthers -should- tear apart a solo or duo defender if coordinated. We're talking about two sets of skills here. First is 1 vs 1, the second is Team skill... and sorry, but you're not going to learn to work as a team via solo queueing.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Just a personal experience: A few days ago I ran into my favorite Imperial premade that always queues with 2 healers, 1 tankasin and 1 focus mara. We had no healers, the enemy team had 2. It was CW and we lasted surprisingly long. In the end I ended up doing around 650k damage (of which at least 300k went into one of their healers) but had less than 5 kills while at the same time I died 14 times. I finished second behind the said focus mara who did 670k damage and had over 40 kills but only died twice.

Now let me ask this of you: which one requires more skill? Doing 670k damage when you have 2(!!!) guarded pocket healers who allow you to run into the thickest mobs and survive virtually everything and be up for 99% of the match? Or doing 650k damage with 0 healers, 0 guards when you had to do a corpse run 14 times!
Which team won? I rest my case.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Being in a premade where everything is handed to you on a sliver platter is *NOT* a higher level of skill. When you have to do everything by yourself is.
*Rolls eyes* Go roll in a premade and see if everything is handed to you. Healers still have to heal, Tanks still need to tank, Dps still needs to dps. Premades don't get a magic "I win" button cause they grouped before the match.

Also, you -can't- do everything by yourself. Can you guard 2 nodes? Can you run a ball vs. 8 other people solo? Can you distract and cap at the same time?

Arlanon's Avatar


Arlanon
11.27.2012 , 05:05 AM | #1253
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva
Being in a premade where everything is handed to you on a sliver platter is *NOT* a higher level of skill. When you have to do everything by yourself is.
Wow. Simultaneous Tea and No Tea. You must be some heavy-duty philosopher.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.27.2012 , 05:32 AM | #1254
Quote:
Hypocritical: professing feelings or virtues one does not have.

<.< You should probably understand big words before you use them. You might be able to use the word Oxymoron:
"A figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction" or more appropriately, just say it's a contradictory statement.
Pick apart every little word if you want. I honestly don't care how you want to word it, I'll use a very simple one to spare you the frustration of having to open wiktionary: your above statement was wrong. Also arrogant? Did I use that word correctly? Do you want to google it as well?

Quote:
Better yet, you could actually understand what I said, which is that Pugging it gives no guarantee you will face "more" situations where your enemies are supported, and it also means you are unlikely to know what to do -when- supported, or how to -support-. You think just having healers -magically- makes it easy for everyone? You've got to protect those healers, peel off of them, and your healers need to know when they should be healing, and when they should be trying to survive (aka, when to trust either someone else will heal them, or that a tank/dps is going to peel off of them.)
Just by having a healer a premade team has an unfair advantage. Healers are a resource that both or neither sides should posess on the same basis. If I PuG whether or not I have a healer is a matter of luck, an RNG roll. Premade teams have a healer by a matter of course and fact. If my team's healing capacity is dependant on a random number, why should the enemy team have a 100% chance of having a healer. I'm ok with an RNG number. But then have the enemy team composition depend on luck as well. This can decide matches even before they began.


Quote:
If your queue times are good, great! Doesn't mean everyone's are, or that the queue times are great 24/7. A matchmaking system that -actually- matches on a criteria (which btw, is different from a true queue system) would achieve the same thing a split bracket would, without -any- of the negatives and allowing for the shortest possible queue times when population/participation is low.
Ah, yes, match making, the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. We all know how likely such as system is to be implemented in the foreseeable future. Oh, wait, we don't. Devs don't tell us anything. Maybe they should?

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're pushing for something that you know very well is not going to happen or will happen too late to be meaningful. In the meantime you'll happily farm the poor noob Recruit players in the normal bracket, when you've found the most overpowered/unbalanced team composition.

Quote:
Because the solo player can not count on such things, they don't know what to do when said things happen. *Snickers* Like the person who runs off the top ramp cause they weren't expecting a rescue. Furthermore, while Solo play -might- (I'm not entirely sold on that) make a player more self reliant, they also don't know how to work on a team. I see it all the time, 4 people head for the same objective (when the plan should be 3 to the first, 1 to the second). I've noticed every stealther thinks it's their job to ninja cap, and so you have 2-3 players tripping over each other trying to ninja cap, when 2 stealthers -should- tear apart a solo or duo defender if coordinated. We're talking about two sets of skills here. First is 1 vs 1, the second is Team skill... and sorry, but you're not going to learn to work as a team via solo queueing.
Well you're not going to be more successful outside of a team if you're only playing in premade teams than you're going to be successful in a team if you're playing solo only. But it's easier to adapt to a team playstyle than to solo playstyle. It's easier to get used to the all the perks and benefits that come with a nice, overgeared, overpowered, unbalanced premade group like a pocket healer or guard or coordinated cc. So when a solo player goes in a team he is granted privileges. When a group player goes solo, he is denied privileges. Try to be successful without a pocket healer and a pocket tank.

Quote:
Which team won? I rest my case.
Great job on dodging the question. I took it then that you agree that it took more skill to score 650k in a team, where you were at every imaginable disadvantage then it took to score 670k, where you held numerous advantage over the enemy team, each of them unfair on their own.

Let me guess the answer: the enemy team because they had an inherently unbeatable group composition. But personally I think I put far more personal effort into winning than each of the premade team members, even if we did not manage to win. Sorry for not being able to dps down 2 healers alone. How can any situation in which (despite your best personal effort) you are predestined to lose be fair in any sense of the word? Wait they're not. Oh then why do we have them?

Quote:
*Rolls eyes* Go roll in a premade and see if everything is handed to you. Healers still have to heal, Tanks still need to tank, Dps still needs to dps. Premades don't get a magic "I win" button cause they grouped before the match.
I've done premades, thank you, despite all your assumptions I can work well in a team and know plenty about teamwork. The difference is that I can actually play outside teams, too. Do you know what the difference is? As a solo player, I need to dps AND heal. Dps AND tank. While playing a Commando, Guardian or Scoundrel, I'm forced to take on two separate roles and be reasonably good at each if our team is missing a particular team member. Carrying two separate sets of gears and sometimes respec inside a warzone, when the queue cannot backfill the proper player. It is much much much more difficult than having a predefined role in a balanced team, where you can count on others to watch your back.

All of which I am totally okay with. As long as the enemy team is fighting on the same terms and using the same rules of engagement.

But the really sad part is that we can continue this this increasingly dry and frustrating debate, defending our precious little sticks in the ground but we will both end up losing. You will stay and play the game and have fun your way. I will stay and play the game and have fun my way. New players, however, especially F2P, will not stay (for long anyway) and pretty soon we'll be left to argue over a desert that was once called SWTOR PvP.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.27.2012 , 06:07 AM | #1255
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Pick apart every little word if you want. I honestly don't care how you want to word it, I'll use a very simple one to spare you the frustration of having to open wiktionary: your above statement was wrong. Also arrogant? Did I use that word correctly? Do you want to google it as well?
U mad bro?

All I'm saying, if you're going to try and use a word with a very negative connotation (and is used by people often to establish themselves as having the moral high ground) you should atleast use the proper word. You won't likely see me harsh on some ones spelling, or point out they said loose instead of loss/lose... Fact still remains, you failed to understand the context of my post.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Just by having a healer a premade team has an unfair advantage. Healers are a resource that both or neither sides should posess on the same basis. If I PuG whether or not I have a healer is a matter of luck, an RNG roll. Premade teams have a healer by a matter of course and fact. If my team's healing capacity is dependant on a random number, why should the enemy team have a 100% chance of having a healer. I'm ok with an RNG number. But then have the enemy team composition depend on luck as well. This can decide matches even before they began.
RNG leads to more imbalance than anything else. A system supporting RNG isn't one that's going to help make a level playing field. That being said, your point is noted, yes a guaranteed healer is an advantage over not being guaranteed one.

=P my question is have you ever seen the match where that backfires. I always laugh when I zone into a match with 3-4 healers (cause 1's in a premade) and not enough dps to take anything.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Ah, yes, match making, the answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything. We all know how likely such as system is to be implemented in the foreseeable future. Oh, wait, we don't. Devs don't tell us anything. Maybe they should?

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're pushing for something that you know very well is not going to happen or will happen too late to be meaningful. In the meantime you'll happily farm the poor noob Recruit players in the normal bracket, when you've found the most overpowered/unbalanced team composition.
While I remember discussing your background, and that you have a slightly better than average knowledge of coding, you still lack the knowledge of Biowares staffing team, numbers, current projects, outside contracts, etc... to determine how likely a matchmaking system is. For the most part, you kinda sound like you're throwing a tantrum cause people aren't arguing with your flawed idea for a fix.

As for whom is making assumptions, my premades are the first 3 people whom respond in guild chat (or the first group that responds to me.) We are a mix of recruit/bm/wh, and may or may not have a healer and/or tank. We still kick ***, but that's cause we know how to play. =P See, we solo when we have to (or when feeling lazy) and acquire those fabled "solo" skills while at the same time, not crying cause we made the choice not to group (or wait for a group).

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Well you're not going to be more successful outside of a team if you're only playing in premade teams than you're going to be successful in a team if you're playing solo only. But it's easier to adapt to a team playstyle than to solo playstyle. It's easier to get used to the all the perks and benefits that come with a nice, overgeared, overpowered, unbalanced premade group like a pocket healer or guard or coordinated cc. So when a solo player goes in a team he is granted privileges. When a group player goes solo, he is denied privileges. Try to be successful without a pocket healer and a pocket tank.
=P false assumption that all premaders never solo, we just prefer not to. Also, again there is no guarantee those you are fighting have support either. If Solo players "really" learned to deal with supported opponents without support, would this topic exist? No... because a "Solo" education will not prepare you for dealing with supported opponents.

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Great job on dodging the question. I took it then that you agree that it took more skill to score 650k in a team, where you were at every imaginable disadvantage then it took to score 670k, where you held numerous advantage over the enemy team, each of them unfair on their own.

Let me guess the answer: the enemy team because they had an inherent unbeatable group composition. But personally I think I put far more personal effort than each of the premade team members. Sorry for not being able to dps down 2 healers alone. How can any situation in which (despite your best personal effort) you are predestined to lose be fair in any sense of the word? Wait they're not. Oh then why do we have them?
*Sighs.* No, I do not agree. I say, you wasted your time running back from death and wailing on a healer without killing it. In the meantime, Mr. Supported Sentinel's dps was spent killing you, removing you from the field, killing your healers, killing your other dps, killing people attacking his healers, etc... ya know, doing something useful. There's a good chance after killing you all, he then stopped you while his team mates capped, or ran off to protect the other node, responded to inc calls, or made such calls himself.

Stats are a horrible representation of "personal" skill because all you did, was waste your dps not killing anything. It's just as likely the other team killed off the important people first while you did effectively nothing to their healers, before finishing they finished you off. =P it's what I would do. Finally... their team still won. Do you think they would have won if they had all stood around? Do you think they would have won if they all went for 1 node, or didn't bother to call incs, etc...

Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
I've done premades, thank you, despite all your assumptions I can work well in a team and know plenty about teamwork. The difference is that I can actually play outside teams, too. Do you know what the difference is? As a solo player, I need to dps AND heal. Dps AND tank. While playing a Commando, Guardian or Scoundrel, I'm forced to take on two separate roles be reasonably good at each if our team is missing a particular team member. Carrying two separate sets of gears and sometimes respec inside a warzone when the queue cannot backfill the proper player. It is much much much more difficult than having a predefined role in a balanced team, where you can count on others to watch your back.

All of which I am totally okay with. As long as the enemy team is fighting on the same terms and using the same rules of engagement.

Also, you -can't- do everything by yourself. Can you guard 2 nodes? Can you run a ball vs. 8 other people solo? Can you distract and cap at the same time?
=P I play both sides too Premade and Solo. Unlike yourself, I know which one is the higher form of PvP and don't ***** when I'm getting my *** kicked from my own choices.

Prisoner's Avatar


Prisoner
11.27.2012 , 06:31 AM | #1256
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Also as someone pointed out, a solo player has to be far more vigilant and observant than a premade player because he cannot count on heals, guard, rescue cc etc. He cannot say, hey check that thing out over there, he has to go and do everything by himself. Therefore a solo player carries a far heavier burden and has to go through a much sharper learning curve to be successful than a premade player who is told everything by his team members. In the end it does tend to make them better and more knowledgeable players overall.
Hahaha, really? I'm sorry, I've pugged most of my time pvping. Only in the last month or two have I joined a guild that runs premades and I call shenanigans on this, even though I really wish it were true.

Because seriously, the reason I try very hard not to pug at all anymore is because the lack of vigilance and situational awareness in your average pug is zero. Rarely do they call out incs. When someone does call out for help, one of two things usually happen: a) it's totally ignored and we lose the node because people are too busy deathmatching or trying to ninja cap a third node we don't need or b) everyone zergs mindlessly off of a door or node, leaving it completely undefended. No one looks at the map or at what's going on around them and thinks: "Hrm... six of us are beating on one dude. Maybe we should figure out where the rest of their team is."

Also, you whine about rarely having healers in pugs. Have you ever really thought about why that is? As someone who plays a commando medic, let me enlighten you. It's because most puggers will let my commando medic get completely stomped on, while simultaneously whining that they're not getting enough heals and dying all the time. Rarely will anyone pay attention and help my toon out when she's getting chased around by a pair of melee. Almost no one tosses a guard or uses their taunts, even when they're playing a tank. Which is why I rarely queue into pugs on my healer anymore unless I'm really desperate to get the daily done.

I'm sorry, but playing on a premade guild team, even on tossed together of a mishmash people in my guild (of varying skill, gear and class utility) who happen to be on at the time, is just a higher level of play. You actually learn to play as a unit, use your skills to complement each other and learn to communicate well. I have become a much better player since I've started running in a guild group.

Don't get me wrong. I've been in some awesome pugs that have kicked the crap out of well known premades. Every single time that's happened though, I've looked around and recognized the names of the puggers - and guess what? It's always made up of people who usually run in groups and are solo queueing just to kill time because their other guildies aren't on.

PloGreen's Avatar


PloGreen
11.27.2012 , 06:46 AM | #1257
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Now let me ask this of you: which one requires more skill? Doing 670k damage when you have 2(!!!) guarded pocket healers who allow you to run into the thickest mobs and survive virtually everything and be up for 99% of the match? Or doing 650k damage with 0 healers, 0 guards when you had to do a corpse run 14 times!

Being in a premade where everything is handed to you on a sliver platter is *NOT* a higher level of skill. When you have to do everything by yourself is.
"Skill" is not determined by people who will not help themselves and choose to whine about people that play pvp in a mode the game allows them to. If you are unable to focus one healer and cc the other in the duration without the use of voice comms then you are not skilled at all or your team refuses to listen, there is no skill in joining pugs and moaning about better and more organized players. It does not even require voice communication to play and win in a 4 man premade, most competent players can read a game group or solo queued and use in game chat, the issue arises when you solo queue and your team is full of too many pig-headed, ignorant, rambos who think they are skilled and that premades are holding them back.

Those guilds on voice chat playing playing in normal warzones arent using voice chat to destroy pugs, they dont need to, they are more likely discussing what they watched on telly while they play. For instance its not rocket science to work out if 6 of your team mates are fighting 2 people on one node, the rest of the oppostion are about to take the other node you are defending because there are only 2 people there. Its not hard to look at your mini map and see which side voidstar is heavily stacked and which side is undefended, Its not hard to call incomings, its not hard to mark healers, or to equip pvp gear - yet I see pugs that fail at this every day at level 50. You would think they would have figured it out by now, but so many people dont. So is there any wonder people choose to group with 3 people that know what they are doing?

LenrocNewDawn's Avatar


LenrocNewDawn
11.27.2012 , 08:45 AM | #1258
@CommanderKeeva
Your attempts to prove that people that pre-made are somehow worse at PvP then those who mostly solo are going to fail no matter how many posts you write. Simple truth is, the more experienced/skilled a player becomes he is more likely to try to run PvP in a pre-made group. Why? Because everyone that has some common sense will recognize that grouping is the best way to maximize your winning chances. A player experienced enough will recognize experience in others and he'll naturally try to play along side those, so his success rate gets better.

Still, everything I wrote above doesn't justify that those grouped, more experienced players get "sometimes" to play against unorganized,lesser skilled/gear opponents. More so when the rewards for those 2 groups are similar. Such possibility is in my opinion the main reason some try to defend the status-quo.

Cheers!
“Being defeated is often a temporary condition. Giving up is what makes it permanent.”

PloGreen's Avatar


PloGreen
11.27.2012 , 08:50 AM | #1259
Quote: Originally Posted by LenrocNewDawn View Post
@CommanderKeeva
Your attempts to prove that people that pre-made are somehow worse at PvP then those who mostly solo are going to fail no matter how many posts you write. Simple truth is, the more experienced/skilled a player becomes he is more likely to try to run PvP in a pre-made group. Why? Because everyone that has some common sense will recognize that grouping is the best way to maximize your winning chances. A player experienced enough will recognize experience in others and he'll naturally try to play along side those, so his success rate gets better.

Still, everything I wrote above doesn't justify that those grouped, more experienced players get "sometimes" to play against unorganized,lesser skilled/gear opponents. More so when the rewards for those 2 groups are similar. Such possibility is in my opinion the main reason some try to defend the status-quo.

Cheers!
If people want to play fisher-price pvp where they never want to meet anyone better geared or organized then they are not really ever going to be happy because in what world will that happen? Its a team based mode of play based on gear progression. Solo queue will not stop them meeting better players with better gear, it will not teach them to play as a team either and pvp is all about team work, not heroic rambos trying to make a difference on their own.

Elfa's Avatar


Elfa
11.27.2012 , 08:52 AM | #1260
Just restrict group PVP to ranked matches, not that hard a fix, besides, that's where grouping matters anyways. If your people are fully augmented and WH geared, you shouldn't need a pre-made to beat *** or else you suck.
I'd like to sit down with the guy responsible for having Busta Rhymes fight Michael Myers in HALLOWEEN RESURRECTION. Then, before he could speak, I would slap him so hard his face would explode and his dog would die." - Jim Law