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Feedback: Jedi Emotional Attachment & Dark Side Points

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Feedback: Jedi Emotional Attachment & Dark Side Points
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Rikaelus's Avatar


Rikaelus
11.27.2012 , 03:18 AM | #1
I'm guessing any feedback is meant to go into this forum...

So, if you support attachments or get yourself into a relationship of some sort, you get Dark Side points. Based on lore this is just incredibly wrong.

Now, I understand that attachments are against the Jedi Code in this era, but the Code is a man-made set of rules separate from the nature of the Force. In both the movies and expanded universe we see attachments of several natures commonplace that clearly don't inherently lead to the Dark Side. Uncontrolled emotion can of course lead a person to the Dark Side but that assumes they're unable to act rationally despite it. Big assumption. The Jedi of this era want to play it safe and ban such attachments, but that doesn't make them inherently Dark.

Just to give a few examples of attachments in the movies and EU that turned out fine:
- Obi-wan and Anakin (Obi-wan even says Anakin is like a brother to him, but still does what's necessary)
- Arguably a great many master-padawan couplings
- Luke and Leia
- Leia and Han
- Nejaa Halcyon married with children (Corran Horn's grandfather)
- Many others with Jedi ancestors, including Kam Solusar and Kyle Katarn
- Corran Horn and Mirax (+children)
- Kam and Tionne Solusar
- Luke and Mara Jade

In fact it was the emotional attachment between Luke and his father that lead to Anakin's redemption.

Point being: emotional attachment isn't inherently Dark. Making poor decisions as a result of jealousy, anger, or sadness, is.

If you want the Jedi Masters to scold our characters for embracing relationships, that's fine. That makes sense for the era. But there should *not* be Dark/Light Side points at play with it.

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.27.2012 , 04:18 AM | #2
I assume you get dark side points for wilful disobedience.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Tirvaak's Avatar


Tirvaak
11.27.2012 , 05:13 AM | #3 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Hi Rikaelus,

For suggestions such as these we would recommend posting in the suggestion box. This will ensure that your feedback reaches the correct department.

Thank You.

Tirvaak | Bioware Customer Service - Forum Support

Marunette's Avatar


Marunette
11.27.2012 , 05:46 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
I'm guessing any feedback is meant to go into this forum...

So, if you support attachments or get yourself into a relationship of some sort, you get Dark Side points. Based on lore this is just incredibly wrong.

Now, I understand that attachments are against the Jedi Code in this era, but the Code is a man-made set of rules separate from the nature of the Force. In both the movies and expanded universe we see attachments of several natures commonplace that clearly don't inherently lead to the Dark Side. Uncontrolled emotion can of course lead a person to the Dark Side but that assumes they're unable to act rationally despite it. Big assumption. The Jedi of this era want to play it safe and ban such attachments, but that doesn't make them inherently Dark.

Just to give a few examples of attachments in the movies and EU that turned out fine:
- Obi-wan and Anakin (Obi-wan even says Anakin is like a brother to him, but still does what's necessary)
- Arguably a great many master-padawan couplings
- Luke and Leia
- Leia and Han
- Nejaa Halcyon married with children (Corran Horn's grandfather)
- Many others with Jedi ancestors, including Kam Solusar and Kyle Katarn
- Corran Horn and Mirax (+children)
- Kam and Tionne Solusar
- Luke and Mara Jade

In fact it was the emotional attachment between Luke and his father that lead to Anakin's redemption.

Point being: emotional attachment isn't inherently Dark. Making poor decisions as a result of jealousy, anger, or sadness, is.

If you want the Jedi Masters to scold our characters for embracing relationships, that's fine. That makes sense for the era. But there should *not* be Dark/Light Side points at play with it.
No, emotional attachment in itself is not Dark. However... it leads to Passion. And if you know your Sith, you know how they feel about Passion. (I'm not talking about horncanine lust alone here so bear with me please)

If you love someone you will always _react_ when something threatens them, which gives emotions a leeway into your otherwise calm, serene mindscape to create quite a lot of havoc. I'm guessing _that_ is why it's DS points - if you attach yourself you immediately open yourself up to a battle between emotions and sense, between doing your duty and abandoning it to protect the one who means the most to you.
Sith Lady of the Sneers.
Cross the streams at your own risk.

JediCahlwyn's Avatar


JediCahlwyn
11.27.2012 , 05:51 AM | #5
Actually they did it pretty well.

Both my Knight and Consular are in loving relationships with companions and I earned ZERO Dark Side points.

You are most likely thinking of the two Padawan in love on Tython? Here is the rub... it isn't that they are in love and seeing each other that is wrong. It is that they are obsessed (at least she is) and they threat and bribe you into lying to the Jedi Masters to hide their more and more "Dark" relationship. The game got it right.

You take the Dark Side Flirt with Kira? Well it is because you are forcing romance on her in a vulnerable and inappropriate position. It is taking advantage. It is the only time you'll get a Dark Side point for romance so don't do it.
--Master Endric Cahlwyn--
<The Womp Rats> of The Shadowlands
Jedi Guardian 55 For The Republic!

FINNT's Avatar


FINNT
11.27.2012 , 06:37 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by JediCahlwyn View Post
Actually they did it pretty well.

Both my Knight and Consular are in loving relationships with companions and I earned ZERO Dark Side points.

You are most likely thinking of the two Padawan in love on Tython? Here is the rub... it isn't that they are in love and seeing each other that is wrong. It is that they are obsessed (at least she is) and they threat and bribe you into lying to the Jedi Masters to hide their more and more "Dark" relationship. The game got it right.

You take the Dark Side Flirt with Kira? Well it is because you are forcing romance on her in a vulnerable and inappropriate position. It is taking advantage. It is the only time you'll get a Dark Side point for romance so don't do it.
I was like, huh, you can get dark side points for romancing ??

Then I read your post.
:laser:

Rikaelus's Avatar


Rikaelus
11.27.2012 , 03:29 PM | #7
Quote:
I assume you get dark side points for wilful disobedience.
Maybe, but I don't see why disobedience would necessarily be Dark, either. If I were told to kill someone in cold blood and refused, my refusal wouldn't be a Dark act. One could make the argument that the Jedi Code is oppressive since it effectively forbids emotion--a vital component of life--so wouldn't disobeying the Code in this instance actually be a Light act?

Quote: Originally Posted by Marunette View Post
No, emotional attachment in itself is not Dark. However... it leads to Passion. And if you know your Sith, you know how they feel about Passion. (I'm not talking about horncanine lust alone here so bear with me please)
The Sith feed on emotion; they encourage emotion to be used in negative ways to acquire power. Before the prequels we never had any indication from Obi-wan or Yoda that all emotion is bad; only those more likely to lead to Dark acts. But even then, a properly trained Jedi can make good judgment despite their emotional state.

"Fear leads to anger, Anger leads to hate, Hate leads to Suffering."

Jedi are taught to control their fear so it doesn't progress to anger, so it doesn't progress to suffering.
Sith would encourage the progression.

Quote:
If you love someone you will always _react_ when something threatens them, which gives emotions a leeway into your otherwise calm, serene mindscape to create quite a lot of havoc. I'm guessing _that_ is why it's DS points - if you attach yourself you immediately open yourself up to a battle between emotions and sense, between doing your duty and abandoning it to protect the one who means the most to you.
And yet we see Jedi exhibit emotion all the time, in the movies, in the EU novels, and even in SW:TOR. Obi-Wan when Qui-Gon is killed, Kip Fisto smiles after he destroys a few droids, Mace Windu as he fights Palpatine, Obi-Wan when Yoda orders him to stop Anakin, and on and on and on.

It's extremely evident that emotion and attachment is commonly practiced. The Jedi even set things up for attachment in their Master-Apprentice relationships.

The difference between Jedi and Sith are that Jedi teach serenity and how to make good decisions regardless of emotions, whereas the Sith teach to focus on emotion when making decisions; to use it as motivation.

Quote: Originally Posted by JediCahlwyn View Post
Both my Knight and Consular are in loving relationships with companions and I earned ZERO Dark Side points.
Sounds pretty inconsistent, then. If your Jedi Knight beds or becomes "sisters" with the Twi'lek Matriarch on Tython, I'm pretty sure that alone gives you Dark Side points.

Quote:
You are most likely thinking of the two Padawan in love on Tython? Here is the rub... it isn't that they are in love and seeing each other that is wrong. It is that they are obsessed (at least she is) and they threat and bribe you into lying to the Jedi Masters to hide their more and more "Dark" relationship. The game got it right.
Sort of. My argument to that would be that the dialogue options suck. There should be a way to leave the conversation before it gets to the point of them offering a bribe. An option to let them go but warn her of her attitude would also be nice because, yeah... she's definitely exhibiting some nasty behaviors as a result of their love.

Kor-Wal's Avatar


Kor-Wal
11.28.2012 , 10:23 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by JediCahlwyn View Post
Actually they did it pretty well.

Both my Knight and Consular are in loving relationships with companions and I earned ZERO Dark Side points.

You are most likely thinking of the two Padawan in love on Tython? Here is the rub... it isn't that they are in love and seeing each other that is wrong. It is that they are obsessed (at least she is) and they threat and bribe you into lying to the Jedi Masters to hide their more and more "Dark" relationship. The game got it right.

You take the Dark Side Flirt with Kira? Well it is because you are forcing romance on her in a vulnerable and inappropriate position. It is taking advantage. It is the only time you'll get a Dark Side point for romance so don't do it.
^Nailed it! heh

Also id like to point out that all of your movie relationships are not involving Jedi who are lookin to "hook up"... i don't think obi-wan callin anikin a brother is the same as lil ani sleeping with the former queen of naboo
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MatronAdena's Avatar


MatronAdena
11.28.2012 , 12:04 PM | #9
There was a reason the NJO dropped the whole taboo and the early Ashla Jed'aii never had it- its a falsehood that in reality did more to harm the jedi than help over time, but was a knee jerk reaction to something and it got carried away.

By that: Attachment. Attachment goes far far beyond relationships, one can be in a loving relationship and not have it as an attachment, and thats being mindful of the impermanence in all things. A jedi can have attachments to their lightsaber, a jedi can have attachments to their code- which is interesting the way the order formed their own attachment to the stigma behind relationships.

though one generation may have been more relaxed that a others, and I noticed the trend where the strictest " dogma pushing" jedi tended to be the ones that get nearly wiped out " where as the ones keeping more to the philosophy and 8 fold path like approach did better.

but then Jed'aii/Bendu philosophy is based almost word for word on Zen- thus has abstract concepts that dont translate over easily- more when placed in western hands.

and at the same time this whole Love = bad really seemed to stem from George himself and I think he's still jaded and jilted over his divorce.
Sorry, I'm old and can only read complete words.