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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

bglodt's Avatar


bglodt
11.23.2012 , 07:48 PM | #231
Quote: Originally Posted by Danicony View Post
Just to correct you, you need 2/2 in "Stagger" from the carnage tree to have an immobilize effect on force charge. And if you took your time to look at what other classes have to fight maras, instead of looking at what they DON'T HAVE I'm sure you'll find pvp more enjoyable. Just like every competetive game, you have to improve yourself instead of talking down on your opponent. I am sure if you start looking at what you, as an individual can do to fight the marauder staring right at you. He got one slow which is melee and consumes two rage, that's one GCD you will have to use on building rage again (this is from a carnage mara perspective) The same mara will also boast a 1 sec immobilization from force charge due to being carnage. That's one gap closer save stealth.

Just send me a PM of which class ya play, and I'll try to indulge you in some counters to maras. A one liner would be: Just kite the batsh*t out of them.
Oh and your gap closer untalented does have an immobilize. Send me another pm and ill tell you about your own class
Zenick Bladeborne, 50 Vanguard, Tranquility, JC
Zenfor Bladeborne, 50 Jedi Sentinel, Tranquility, JC

I play the vaunted 31/31/31 spec... It's not that good though.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.24.2012 , 12:53 AM | #232
Quote: Originally Posted by Danicony View Post
People seem to have a hard time grasping that marauders are melee, medium armour, in carnage/anni they only have one real gap closer (you can say force camo, but using it to initiate against anything save agents is stupid) so that basically implies that a knockback would **** up maras pretty badly.

People just need to learn how to use their abilities, it's not like undying rage gives CC immunity, and slows isn't affected by the resolve, neither is knockback.

I do agree that mara's force camo needs a 15-30 sec cooldown increase, as mentioned earlier.

But depriving maras of their survivability is just destroying the class as a whole. It's like removing cover from snipers.
Except you have the best surv of any class while also having the 2nd highest dps of any class (close behind PTs). But unlike maras, PTs don't have a billion def cds, so their dps is ok because they drop quickly. They're essentially glass cannons.

Maras are adamantium cannons. Not cool.

PowerReaper's Avatar


PowerReaper
11.24.2012 , 02:01 AM | #233
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Except you have the best surv of any class while also having the 2nd highest dps of any class (close behind PTs). But unlike maras, PTs don't have a billion def cds, so their dps is ok because they drop quickly. They're essentially glass cannons.

Maras are adamantium cannons. Not cool.
Here we go with another Power Techs have less survivability and utility rant, that's a load of crap. They may not have a lot of survivability but they sure do have . . .
- A 2 second AOE Stun that DOESN'T BREAK ON DAMAGE and another 4 second one.
- A pull
- Taunts
- And are not limited to 4ms of range to deal there dps.
Prophecy Of The Five
Warlord »schaton - 55 Sith Juggernaut
Elite Warlord Christine - 55 Jedi Sentinel

Gelious's Avatar


Gelious
11.24.2012 , 02:41 AM | #234
Quote: Originally Posted by fungihoujo View Post
Obviously if you ignore half the things your class is able to do you can pretend it's a balanced class- but anyone who isn't stupid is looking at you guys and saying 'well, another marauder who's completely full of ********.'.

Every single thread on this topic has marauders saying the same wrong things- maybe the reason you guys feel mara are balanced is because you're all absolutely terrible? Oh, not maybe- that is the reason, and it's obvious when you can never get your own abilities right.
Enough already. Maras don't have

- knockbacks

- Real stun (except only for droids). Our AOE stun breaks on damage, and if we do Force Choke, we can't do anything else.

- Due to everyone else having knockbacks\Force Push gap closer is almost useless. We use Jump - we got knocked back AND rooted. Awesome.

Leave us alone. If you want to nerf someone, SI is the class you are looking for.
"No, they will not! I command them to know fear! To raise me to my throne! They can not!" - Soa, SWTOR
Gelious, Sith Marauder 50 lvl - Red Eclipse;
Xatras, Jedi Guardian 50 lvl - Red Eclipse;

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.24.2012 , 02:47 AM | #235
Quote: Originally Posted by PowerReaper View Post
Here we go with another Power Techs have less survivability and utility rant, that's a load of crap. They may not have a lot of survivability but they sure do have . . .
- A 2 second AOE Stun that DOESN'T BREAK ON DAMAGE and another 4 second one.
- A pull
- Taunts
- And are not limited to 4ms of range to deal there dps.
Dude you just contradicted yourself. You just said that "PTs have less surv and utility rants are a load of crap", but then say they don't have a lot of surv. Get it together mang.

It's a fact of matter that PTs have less surv and utility than maras. Pull is only REALLY useful in huttball. It's also not unique to them. Same with taunts, two other classes have it too, and honestly taunts are kinda of pointless for PTs since they are almost always the first to get attacked in RWZs.

Maras have predation. Predation is NECESSARY to win in RWZ. Their other group buffs are also quite useful in the right situations too.

Danicony's Avatar


Danicony
11.24.2012 , 03:04 AM | #236
Well, I stand corrected regarding force charge.

Also, sure, you can say we have predation, but you need 30 stacks to use it. So unless you use a 3min CD you won't have any possibility to open with it. AND in turn it will shut down your heals and severely blurt your damage, seeing as you won't have berserk.

Marauder is probably the most balanced class save the short CD on force camo and the immense damage of force smash.

If Powertech was melee, sure, they'd have more defensive CDs, but they aren't.

Again, it annoys me that it's the same 3-4 qq'ers posting about marauders, and I have yet to see any of you bring anything new to this dicsussion over the 20 pages. At this point I can't do anything but repeat myself:
Marauder is a melee, high risk high return class. If you get KB'ed after force charge / when your cloak of pain is up then the skill is completely wasted. Same for the four sec of undying rage. Saber Ward and Force camo are the only reliable CDs.

Another thing about marauders is their amazing utility, and I myself find their gameplay much more interesting than the other classes, you have to make mid battle choices for your fury, there's always something going on for a mara, and it's the easiest class to play decent, but definitely one of the hardest classes to master if you ask me.

I can't really do anything other than repeating to you how useless a marauder would be in high end pvp if their defensive CDs were nerfed to the ground as you suggest, sure, maras are excellent 1v1, but that is what they are meant for.

They are supposed to cap that node quickly, they have an excellent kit to get over there fast (if you are willing to use a 3 min cd, or just got out of combat without spending stacks) but they are so vulnreable to CC in so many ways. And to be honest, even though smash is strong, it's not as if it's hard to dodge.

So to conclude, the only points I can really see myself agreeing on is the longer CD on force camo and toning down smash. And to be honest, I wouldn't mind decreasing max duration of cloak of pain down to 25, seeing as it's friggen hard to get it to last 30 sec vs any competent player. Last note: Every class got their own strengths and weaknesses, knowing your own class, and knowing your kit and be able to use it is a great start when you are going to PvP.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.24.2012 , 03:11 AM | #237
Quote: Originally Posted by Gelious View Post
Enough already. Maras don't have

- knockbacks

- Real stun (except only for droids). Our AOE stun breaks on damage, and if we do Force Choke, we can't do anything else.

- Due to everyone else having knockbacks\Force Push gap closer is almost useless. We use Jump - we got knocked back AND rooted. Awesome.

Leave us alone. If you want to nerf someone, SI is the class you are looking for.
Normally, I defend Marauders/Sents from unreasonable nerf attacks, but you aren't really helping.

PTs, Operatives and Marauders don't have knockbacks. Juggernaut KB is single target and it has a relatively long c/d.

2-sec stun isn't as useful as you're making it out to be. I prefer Awe over it any day.

You do not charge straight at the person (unless it's really justified). You lure the knockback from them, then charge in. On Warzones, it's pretty easy on foot. Camo also helps. And no, it's not an escape maneuver. Each time I see some FOTM player use it pad their cowardly retreat, I want to cut them down myself. Camo is an excellent initial gap-closer, offensive cast-breaker, or channel-breaker.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.24.2012 , 03:52 AM | #238
Quote: Originally Posted by Danicony View Post
Well, I stand corrected regarding force charge.

Also, sure, you can say we have predation, but you need 30 stacks to use it. So unless you use a 3min CD you won't have any possibility to open with it. AND in turn it will shut down your heals and severely blurt your damage, seeing as you won't have berserk.
Every good team opens with pred when a match starts because it determines the winner usually. Teams use it for reinforcing nodes too. It's THAT useful. Pred is literally a game changer. It's well worth the usage of frenzy.

Quote:
Marauder is probably the most balanced class save the short CD on force camo and the immense damage of force smash.
You can't call a class the most balanced and then claim that abilities they have need nerfing. The most balanced class is actually snipers.

Quote:
If Powertech was melee, sure, they'd have more defensive CDs, but they aren't.
Guardians, sins, and ops are also melee, but don't have as much def cds as maras, nor as high dps. What's your excuse this time?

Quote:
Again, it annoys me that it's the same 3-4 qq'ers posting about marauders, and I have yet to see any of you bring anything new to this dicsussion over the 20 pages. At this point I can't do anything but repeat myself:
Marauder is a melee, high risk high return class. If you get KB'ed after force charge / when your cloak of pain is up then the skill is completely wasted. Same for the four sec of undying rage. Saber Ward and Force camo are the only reliable CDs.
What exactly is high risk about playing a mara? You try playing any of the other melee classes? Dps scoundrels, and non hybrid sins. Those are high risk, high reward classes.

Quote:
Another thing about marauders is their amazing utility, and I myself find their gameplay much more interesting than the other classes, you have to make mid battle choices for your fury, there's always something going on for a mara, and it's the easiest class to play decent, but definitely one of the hardest classes to master if you ask me.
So on top of the damage (second only to PTs), their surv (the best), they also have amazing/best utility. So if they're the best, or almost best, at everything, how can you say they aren't OP.

Quote:
I can't really do anything other than repeating to you how useless a marauder would be in high end pvp if their defensive CDs were nerfed to the ground as you suggest, sure, maras are excellent 1v1, but that is what they are meant for.
They no longer be a class that is REQUIRED to bring to every RWZ team. Nerfing the class won't break them in RWZs. If you want to keep their dps, then they need a nerf to surv (be like PTs), or if you want surv, then nerf their dps (closer to sins).

Danicony's Avatar


Danicony
11.24.2012 , 05:32 AM | #239
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Every good team opens with pred when a match starts because it determines the winner usually. Teams use it for reinforcing nodes too. It's THAT useful. Pred is literally a game changer. It's well worth the usage of frenzy.



You can't call a class the most balanced and then claim that abilities they have need nerfing. The most balanced class is actually snipers.



Guardians, sins, and ops are also melee, but don't have as much def cds as maras, nor as high dps. What's your excuse this time?



What exactly is high risk about playing a mara? You try playing any of the other melee classes? Dps scoundrels, and non hybrid sins. Those are high risk, high reward classes.



So on top of the damage (second only to PTs), their surv (the best), they also have amazing/best utility. So if they're the best, or almost best, at everything, how can you say they aren't OP.



They no longer be a class that is REQUIRED to bring to every RWZ team. Nerfing the class won't break them in RWZs. If you want to keep their dps, then they need a nerf to surv (be like PTs), or if you want surv, then nerf their dps (closer to sins).
I see it's pointless trying to convince you, as you absolutely refuse looking at other classes ups and downs, but cling to whine about the same things over and over.

It's no possible way for me to clarify this more than I have already done, and continuing this discussion is pointless at best.

Side note: I said, they are the most balanced class SAVE <etc> that means "BESIDES" those abilities. Other synonyms are: Except, not taking in consideration, if you look away from"

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.24.2012 , 08:09 PM | #240
Quote: Originally Posted by Danicony View Post
I see it's pointless trying to convince you, as you absolutely refuse looking at other classes ups and downs, but cling to whine about the same things over and over.

It's no possible way for me to clarify this more than I have already done, and continuing this discussion is pointless at best.
Dude I have four 50s, 3 of which are in full WH, and a 49, and the rest of the classes being lowbies. I've played enough of this game to know the ups and downs of all the classes. I've done RWZs at the highest level this game has to offer because my old guild was the best pvp Rep guild on the server. Have you?

Quote:
Side note: I said, they are the most balanced class SAVE <etc> that means "BESIDES" those abilities. Other synonyms are: Except, not taking in consideration, if you look away from"
A wise man once said that nothing that comes before a "but", "except", "save", or whatever similar word you choose to use, counts.