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Should Bioware buff Voltaic slash?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Shadow / Assassin
Should Bioware buff Voltaic slash?
 

Fireswraith's Avatar


Fireswraith
11.23.2012 , 05:08 PM | #11
Yes, buff it, 1500-2k base damage. I want to see all the QQ's from Rage spec Juggs and Marauders and watch everyone roll an Assassin and warzones be 8v8 Decepticon Sins! That would be fun.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.23.2012 , 05:36 PM | #12
Quote: Originally Posted by Fireswraith View Post
Yes, buff it, 1500-2k base damage. I want to see all the QQ's from Rage spec Juggs and Marauders and watch everyone roll an Assassin and warzones be 8v8 Decepticon Sins! That would be fun.
The problem is not with VS itself. The problem is that what it contributes to the rest of the tree is not enough to make it worth taking over Death Field.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

KangoRue's Avatar


KangoRue
11.25.2012 , 04:39 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
The problem is not with VS itself. The problem is that what it contributes to the rest of the tree is not enough to make it worth taking over Death Field.

Some guy posted that DF over VS buffed shock is worth it. no, bro no. Maybe it might do overall more damage if it hits more than one target in pvp, however 2k dmg across 3 people is nothing. VS for me crits most targets for 900-1000 per hit, netting ~1800-2k dmg per slash, and buffs the followup shock. Please keep in mind that shock is on a shorter CD than DF. If you run a 0/3x/1x build, you will be taking the 3/3 45% chance to add a second shock. Buffed with reck, 2x vs and shock is a larger single target damage on a single target. Deception is NOT an aoe spec, it is used for specific targeting of characters (healers and target switching). If you are looking at node guarding, deep deception is not the spec for you. If you are looking at 1v1 lolyourenotplayingpvpwarzonesright specs, deception might not be for you. If you are making measured, calculating choices on who you are attacking, and are able to choose wisely, deception is an amazing spec for bursting down specific targets.

Anyone saying that 1x points in madness is better because of DF over a 3x build in deception is the probably the guy running around in BM/Recruit/onepiece of war hero that the rest of us GOOD players like to make into a prison *****.

DarthMaulUK's Avatar


DarthMaulUK
11.25.2012 , 08:27 AM | #14
I think personally VS is awesome. Looks good, sounds painful and IS painful lol

I've been playing with the 0/27/14 spec and despite missing Force pull from my previous (27/3/14) spec, I have been enjoying it. But.

Full deception is the way to go if you want to deal burst damage on a single target but I guess it depends on your role within the team. DF is great to stop node caps and take a chicken runner out when they force speed away with just 5 HP left but playing full deception is just more fluid.
to strive to seek, to find. And not to yield.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.25.2012 , 03:38 PM | #15
You people really do not get it do you? Adding Deathfield gives you more burst than a standard Deception spec. Period. Run the numbers yourself, any gear level. I'll try and lay it out. For this example, we'll say that Duplicity procs at a good time, and so did chain shock for both rotations.

0/27/14:

Recklessness> DF> Discharge> 2x thrash> Shock + Chain shock proc> Maul

2/31/8:

2x VS> Recklessness> Shock (with VS buff) + Chain shock proc> Discharge> Maul

Assuming that both rotations get the same number of crits, the 0/27/14 rotation will ALWAYS do more damage than the 2/31/8 rotation. The only time 2/31/8 will pull ahead is if the crit RNG isn't as nice to 0/27/14. Claws of Decay will usually put thrash's damage close enough to VS' damage.

To the guy who conveniently ignored when I said it the first time, I know that shock is a much shorter cd than DF. And I know that after the opening phase, the VS boost to shock will put 2/31/8's sustained damage higher than 0/27/14's. But frankly, if they survive the opening burst phase, then you have failed, because then the enemy healers are going to heal them right back up, and any damage you did is wasted. THE POINT IS TO KILL YOUR ENEMY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE, BEFORE THEY CAN BE HEALED UP!

I do not get why people are so against using Deathfield. It gives you a stronger burst phase, and the utility. I could understand skipping over DF's utility IF the boost from VS gave you more damage in return. But it does not. DF gives more utility, and more damage. It's a win- win.

So sure, in regular warzones where both teams are uncoordinated, sure, run 2/31/8, and yes, you will do well with it. But I guarantee that you will never be as efficient against a coordinated enemy team as you would be in 0/27/14.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.25.2012 , 04:02 PM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
You people really do not get it do you? Adding Deathfield gives you more burst than a standard Deception spec. Period. Run the numbers yourself, any gear level. I'll try and lay it out. For this example, we'll say that Duplicity procs at a good time, and so did chain shock for both rotations.

0/27/14:

Recklessness> DF> Discharge> 2x thrash> Shock + Chain shock proc> Maul

2/31/8:

2x VS> Recklessness> Shock (with VS buff) + Chain shock proc> Discharge> Maul

Assuming that both rotations get the same number of crits, the 0/27/14 rotation will ALWAYS do more damage than the 2/31/8 rotation. The only time 2/31/8 will pull ahead is if the crit RNG isn't as nice to 0/27/14. Claws of Decay will usually put thrash's damage close enough to VS' damage.
It's a bit normal that it does higher damage if you add an ability in the rotation...
The 31pts-spec uses 5 hitters (2x Voltaic, Shock, Discharge, Maul) while the 27pts-spec uses 6 (the same 3 Force powers plus 2 Thrash plus Death Field).
If you want to compare properly, add a third Voltaic Slash at the end of the 31pts-spec's rotation (or Low Slash if in need to stop a guy and find a position for Maul or to interrupt him), so that both takes the same time to use (and note that if it's Voltaic slash, it means that while the 27pts-spec ends its burst, the 31pts-spec is already starting to build its next one).

I also hope for you that your Death Field hits only one person, or it will be hard to crit your Discharge/Shock.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
11.25.2012 , 06:52 PM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by Altheran View Post
It's a bit normal that it does higher damage if you add an ability in the rotation...
The 31pts-spec uses 5 hitters (2x Voltaic, Shock, Discharge, Maul) while the 27pts-spec uses 6 (the same 3 Force powers plus 2 Thrash plus Death Field).
If you want to compare properly, add a third Voltaic Slash at the end of the 31pts-spec's rotation (or Low Slash if in need to stop a guy and find a position for Maul or to interrupt him), so that both takes the same time to use (and note that if it's Voltaic slash, it means that while the 27pts-spec ends its burst, the 31pts-spec is already starting to build its next one).

I also hope for you that your Death Field hits only one person, or it will be hard to crit your Discharge/Shock.
I actually added the 2x thrashes in for the purpose of putting in the same number of hits as 31pts, but miscounted haha. Thanks for pointing that out. The 2x thrashes are only to lower the cost of shock, if you have lots of force (AKA just entering combat, and have Dark Embrace up) then you do not even need them. The rotation turns into Recklessness> DF> Discharge> Shock> Maul. You find me a 31pts build that does that much damage in 4 moves. That's why I prefer 27pts over 31pts. I do not need to use 2 thrashes/ VS to get my highest damage. No setup required.

I also am not having a real issue with hitting multiple people with DF accidentally. It comes naturally to me to aim it off to the side so that only my intended target gets hit. Does not always happen of course, but mistakes/ unavoidable multi-hits are infrequent enough that I can live with it. If I've got Recklessness up, I'm typically going healer hunting, and a smart healer does not stand in the middle of it all. And for those 75 seconds in between Recklessness, the AoE is always a positive.

I do still very much enjoy playing Deception, I'm just trying to point out to the OP why I prefer to not take VS, which was the original question he asked.

Side note: Does Overcharge Saber increase the damage done by Discharge? I've never thought so, but people keep seeming to throw it in before popping Discharge.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

KangoRue's Avatar


KangoRue
11.26.2012 , 12:01 AM | #18
Rancor, I retract my previous statement. The build you posted is actually quite nice. I finally broke down and bought a pvp dummy for my ship and did some testing. As it turns out, overcharge saber does not affect discharge. What it does do, however is turn my 500 charge crits into 1k charge crits, which was parsing very nicley lol.


Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
I actually added the 2x thrashes in for the purpose of putting in the same number of hits as 31pts, but miscounted haha. Thanks for pointing that out. The 2x thrashes are only to lower the cost of shock, if you have lots of force (AKA just entering combat, and have Dark Embrace up) then you do not even need them. The rotation turns into Recklessness> DF> Discharge> Shock> Maul. You find me a 31pts build that does that much damage in 4 moves. That's why I prefer 27pts over 31pts. I do not need to use 2 thrashes/ VS to get my highest damage. No setup required.

I also am not having a real issue with hitting multiple people with DF accidentally. It comes naturally to me to aim it off to the side so that only my intended target gets hit. Does not always happen of course, but mistakes/ unavoidable multi-hits are infrequent enough that I can live with it. If I've got Recklessness up, I'm typically going healer hunting, and a smart healer does not stand in the middle of it all. And for those 75 seconds in between Recklessness, the AoE is always a positive.

I do still very much enjoy playing Deception, I'm just trying to point out to the OP why I prefer to not take VS, which was the original question he asked.

Side note: Does Overcharge Saber increase the damage done by Discharge? I've never thought so, but people keep seeming to throw it in before popping Discharge.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
11.26.2012 , 03:35 AM | #19
@Rancor

I have tried so many damn times to get people to try new specs, they just wont. When I was destroying people with Mad Maul no one would listen to me and everyone just stayed the boring 31-1-9. Wakajinn spec is absolutely the best spec for opening burst and survivability but no matter what no one will listen. They will just keep doing what they always do. They will read the posts but they wont try it, then just flame the post based off of bias and miscalculated theory crafting.

On a side note, in the Wakalord guide there are many examples of why the Wakajinn spec out performs the other specs. I did notice one more thing that was not discussed in the entire thread. One of the greatest attributes of Wakajinn spec is its burst, 20k damage in 12 seconds with out Recklessness buff. That is sexy. Where that burst really shines is during Focus Fire. In WZ's specially rated WZ's well timed Focus Fire will make our break your team. With the set up required from Deception, Madness and Mad Maul it is really hard to get a well timed Focus Fire. Sure if you have 2x VS already or Raze proc you can turn to another target and nuke, but if you don't have it up yet then you have to build it. With Wakajinn you do not have to worry about set up, so you can unload anytime you want. Wakajinn really shines when a healer is getting his face Smashed in by a Jugg and is sitting at 50%, when a Wakajinn Sin gets added to that healer it is pretty much game over.

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.26.2012 , 03:46 AM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
The rotation turns into Recklessness> DF> Discharge> Shock> Maul. You find me a 31pts build that does that much damage in 4 moves. That's why I prefer 27pts over 31pts. I do not need to use 2 thrashes/ VS to get my highest damage. No setup required.
But without setup, you won't have Duplicity. Won't you have problems to compete with 31pts, with a Maul at 50 Force and without the 30% bonus ?
The rotation would cost in total 37+ 45 +20 +50 = 152 Force, maybe it's a bit short with Force regenration before using the fourth ability... you would have spent 102 Force, while having regenerated 12 Force 4times within 4.5s meaning 48 Force, so 102 of effective 148, it will normally remain 46 Force too short for Maul unless delaying it a bit to wait the fifth second or unless you have the +10 Force in your build.

Quote: Originally Posted by RankorSSGS View Post
Side note: Does Overcharge Saber increase the damage done by Discharge? I've never thought so, but people keep seeming to throw it in before popping Discharge.
No, it doesn't (unless I'm mistaking). I actually don't understand why people give so much credit to this skill. It's a no-cost damage increase, which is nice but it's marginal IMO.