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Same gender relationships clarifications?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Story and Lore
Same gender relationships clarifications?
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Uluain's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 11:44 AM | #3211
Quote: Originally Posted by MoogleNut View Post
If they can take time to tell people why hood toggle's are delayed, there's really no valid excuse not to tell us that SGRAs have been postponed.
A thousand times this, just at the very least.

Uluain's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 01:02 PM | #3213
It happens to the best of us.

And I do believe that SGRs are still coming... eventually. But if they last we heard is "this year" and that is no longer the case, then they really should tell us that. But with how they have handled this discussion, for me personally, at this point anything now is going to be too late. Implementing Makeb tomorrow with all the SGRs in would not fix this for me, because they've had all the time in the world to assess our questions here which have to do with knowing how best to approach existing content as we wait and they haven't.

I do believe there is a draconian corporate gag-rule on this. I don't think that pardons the silence. Either the Community Team ought to have gone toe-to-toe with corporate to get cleared to talk about this, or they could have found a loophole to speak through, or just taken a huge risk and simply defied that directive in the interest of promoting the game to its community. They haven't. So I conclude that in this case "can't tell you" really does mean "choose not to tell you". Well, that's their choice to make. Mine is where to spend my money. It won't be here.

Slaign's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 03:02 PM | #3214
I'd like to comment on some of the things going on in this thread.

First of all, I think we must be careful about how we let people like ImperialSun and others like him effect us. It's perfectly valid to just ignore these people. These people do not represent the views of BioWare, so trying to change their minds is an exercise in futility. Not only is it unlikely you will actually change their minds, but even should you succeed, it really doesn't get you anywhere.

That said, that doesn't mean there is no value in correcting their falsehoods. There may be readers of this thread who see their posts and think they might have a point. In that instance, it's useful to have a post pointing out the facts. How you go about it is important though. Calmly point out the inaccuracies and counter them with the facts we have, and leave it at that. When they inevetiably respond to attempt to discredit you, ignore them. You've already done what you need to do, and continuing the argument is of no value to anyone.

Just remember that you may find what these people say to be offensive, but it's really not important. They are but one voice in a crowd of thousands, their opinions have little to no effect on the matter at hand. Remember that no matter how little information we may have, the information that does exist supports our side

It's important to recognize when these people are just poking at the soft spots in your armor and watching you argue against your own fears. Many of us wouldn't be here if there wasn't a part of us that's afraid that the trolls might be right, and the content we've been waiting for might never come. It's easy to become defensive and rail against that idea with all you can muster, but it doesn't put you any closer to the end goal.

Secondly, I think it's important to temper our dissatisfaction. Let me get this out of the way: I am very dissatisfied with how this has been handled. It's an issue that is important to me, and I never expected it to go on this long with this little information. When I heard "post-launch feature" I was disappointed, but I never expected it to take this long. When 3 patches came and went with no mention, I cancelled my subscription and figured I'd come back when it was in. Now, with all the changes since then, I want to play the game again, but this major feature is missing. I'm not happy.

That being said, I feel like some of you are being rather unreasonable about directing your dissatisfaction. You are blaming people who it makes no sense to blame. You are verging on the territory of conspiracy, and I don't think it's appropriate or logical. I understand how easy it can be to feel like the world is out to get you when things are going this slowly and poorly, but it's important to maintain your calm and understanding.

Let's go through a list of the usual suspects:

EA - I'll admit, if I were to pick out a suspect from the line up for who I think is most likely to be behind a conspiracy to keep this content silenced, it would be EA. They do, after all, hold the purse strings, and they are the publisher, meaning they are involved in marketing and PR. Still, just because they are the MOST likely suspect, doesn't make it likely.

I've been following gaming news closely for 15 years. Gaming is a major part of my life. By that virtue, I remember a time when EA was considered the devil, and deserved it. Back in the 90s and early 00s, EA was a very out of touch company, doing a lot of crappy things, and getting a lot of flack for it. Somewhere along the line, in the last decade, EA realized it was mucking up, and really started to turn itself around.

Now-a-days, I don't think EA is nearly as bad as the reputation they earned in those early years. Don't get me wrong, EA is still a titan company, with a focus on the bottom line. They are publishers, business people. They make poor decisions coming from that angle, decisions that developers as artists and gamers as fans don't agree with all the time. But as far as major developers go, EA isn't so bad anymore. They've actually been very good for the industry. A lot of development houses wouldn't exist anymore if EA hadn't acquired them.

Compare EA to a company like Activision and their poster boy Bobby Kotick, and suddenly EA doesn't look so bad. It became popular opinion that EA was the devil back when that was justified, and now they can't quite shake that pervasive opinion. It doesn't help that EA is so huge that they are involved in a large percentage of games, and become an easy scapegoat for those games' problems. And I think that's what's happening here.

Like I said, I've been following gaming news for 15 years. In those 15 years I don't recall any instance of EA being embroiled in a controversy about homosexuality and falling on the side of the Antis. In fact, it's just the opposite.

- EA became the publisher for Mass Effect on ME2, a game which increased the number of homosexual romance options available. ME3, also under their banner, further increased inclusiveness by adding further such options, and finally including male homosexuals.

- EA also published the Dragon Age series, which likewise included quite a bit of homosexual romance content.

- EA came out in public opposition to DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act, a law which sought to define marriage as between a man and a woman. If EA was truly afraid of bigots impact on their bottom line, why would they have done this?

- EA publically supported LGBT month, and marched in pride parades in San Francisco.

- EA produced and released a video for the anti-bullying, homosexual support project "It get's better."

- EA recently recieved an award for their progressive hiring practices in relation to the homosexual community.

Then there is BioWare, the company that wrote and developed the homosexual content in the Mass Effect and Dragon Age series. While it's clear that BioWare is somehow responsible for the fact that this content isn't in, claiming it is because they are afraid of the anti-gay backlash has no basis in evidence. BioWare has no history of shying away from this type of content, and is in fact a leader in progressive inclusion.

Then, for some reason, we have Disney. Disney recently aquired LucasFilm, and by extension LucasArts and SWTOR, and some people have opined that this means SGRAs will never appear. This isn't at all logical. First of all, this is an ongoing issue from before the acquisition. Secondly, Disney is a very hands off parent company, and wouldn't have any direct involvement with a project like this, except perhaps to authorize an infusion of funding.

More importantly, however, Disney as a company has long been progressive on the issue of homosexuality. They give benefits to same sex couples, even though they aren't required by law to do so. They hold "Gay Days" events in their parks. They allow same sex couples to have ceremonies in their parks. Overall, Disney has been very outspoken in their support of the gay community, both with words and actions.

So, if you're still sticking with me at this point in the post (Yay! Congrats on your endurance!) you may be wondering, "Fine, if all these companies are so progressive, who is it holding up the SGRA content and keeping things silent?"

The most logical answer, I think, is: Nobody. I think the hold up is honestly just due to the facts of the production pipeline.

Let's face it. SGRAs, done right and the way BioWare usually does it, is probably the single biggest peice of content promised to us in terms of production scale. We're talking about writing assets, voice acting, and animation. If it's done the way we hope it is, we're also talking about all that for at least 16 companions, one of each gender for each class. Even if it's new companions with this content, it'd hopefully be at least 2 of them, entirely new head models and animations, abilities, story lines, and perhaps customizations.

It makes sense that this is taking some serious time. I mean, if this wasn't a big effort, they wouldn't have chosen to delay it. Compound that with the issues they've faced since launch, and you have a pretty reasonable, logical explanation for why we don't have this content yet. Despite all the "everything is awesome" messages coming out of BioWare, there is no way this F2P conversion didn't throw a wrench into all their plans.

So why the silence?

Because BioWare, and game developers, hell, artists in general, tend to not want to talk about future content. It's a process, and in that process a lot can change. They don't want to talk about content they aren't ready to talk about.

Why not at least confirm this is coming?

Well, they have already done that. They issued statements about it long ago. They probably feel reiterating it serves little purpose. Further, while "No new information" can feel like a blow off, if you really look at it, a cancelation of the feature would be new information. "No new information" really means "The information is the same as our last announcement," and the last announcement is that this content is coming.

They also may feel that issuing a direct confirmation is unnecessarily opening multiple cans of worms. The first can would be the potential flame wars between pro and anti gay factions. They probably want as little of that as possible, and why open that can before they can really provide some info for us? Especially at a time when they are attempting to attract new players who would be turned off by such bickering.

The second can of worms is us. We have a lot of questions beyond just is this content coming. These are all questions they aren't ready to answer. As soon as they issue a confirmation, it's not like we will become satisfied and calm down. On the contrary, it will whip us into a frenzy of questions, and again, they may feel it's not necessary to open that can before its time.

Personally, I'm not sure I agree. I think a simple confirmation would be entirely worth it, just to set hearts at ease. But of course I think that, I'm one of those hearts looking to be set at ease.

So why can they address something like Hood Toggles or something else so small, but not a big important issue like this?

The answer is in the question: It's a matter of scale. Hood Toggles are a feature. SGRAs are content. Hood Toggles are something that's likely the project of a single person. It's easy to track down solid answers and it's easy to address. Confirming and discussing progress on Hood Toggles is the entirety of the discussion. A quick sentance is all they need, it's not a big topic. SGRAs are, as I said above, a multiple cans of worms issue.

Also it just comes down to the type of content, feature vs content. It's easier for a developer to talk about a feature than it is to talk about future content. Developers like to keep content under wraps, but feel generally at liberty to discuss features. (Content would be SGRAs, zones, quests, companions, operations, etc. Features would be hood toggles, character customizations, UI changes, etc.)

Our passion for this issue is important. Continued discussion keeps the topic alive and shows our continued interest. However, it's equally important to temper that passion with reason. We need to be understanding of the constraints the developers face, and not jump to conclusions.

It is important that we do not turn our disappointment and dissatisfaction with the timeline involved with out pet issue into anger and unreasonable accusations against the developers and their superiors. All that does is embitter them towards dealing with our community. It makes it further important that they carefully consider every intereaction with us and do nothing to risk igniting the powder keg.

I truly do understand, sympathize, and share in your disappointment and desire for information. It is important however, to keep reality in focus and to remember this is "just a game." Trust me, I know how annoying that phrase can be. I've been a hardcore gaming fan for most of my life, so gaming is a big part of my life, but at the end of the day inclusion or exclusion of SGRAs isn't likely to have a huge impact on any of our lives. That doesn't invalidate our desires, but it's important to keep them in perspective.

It's perfectly valid to cancel your subscription. It's ok to have burnt out on hoping for this content, and reached a place where you no longer care. It's ok to just cancel your sub and keep your eye on this situation as it develops, with intent to come back when things are moving in the right direction or SGRAs are released. I've done so before, and will do so again if it comes to that point.

But it's important to do so with hope, not anger, in your heart. Stay strong.

Tatile's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 03:18 PM | #3215

So, there's that.

Edit: Makeb not delayed

Eleuril's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 03:51 PM | #3216
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post

So, there's that.

Edit: Makeb not delayed
Reading through this and reading about the 1.5 team and Makeb team being separate, I wonder if the same is going to be true of the 1.6 team. After all Makeb is going to be a mini-expansion of sorts and 1.6 currently looks like just another patch. I would add that we don't know much about 1.6 at the moment and it might be that they're testing the more minor things such as the new warzone before they drop Makeb onto the PTS too. We should know within a week or two what else will be coming with the next patch.

Also, it has me thinking that Makeb might be off the "content every six weeks" schedule. Maybe we'll see Makeb a couple of weeks after 1.6 if that is the case.

Tatile's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 04:02 PM | #3217
Quote: Originally Posted by Eleuril View Post
Also, it has me thinking that Makeb might be off the "content every six weeks" schedule. Maybe we'll see Makeb a couple of weeks after 1.6 if that is the case.
I was over-simplifying the article's content. Makeb is not being delayed by 1.5/F2P and they apparently still have the intention of a "this year" release. As someone said in another thread, they can still intend to get it out this year as we reach 2013, which it definitely will be if 1.6 is PvP only.

With 1.5, the PTS was uploaded with the content in stages, so it's possible that 1.6 could be handled similarly. However there's also the (greater) possibility that it won't be.

If we take Mr. Amatengelo to be correct, this is still good-ish news for us.

(Cue people telling me I'm a horrible person for having hope )

Eleuril's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 04:07 PM | #3218
Quote: Originally Posted by Tatile View Post
I was over-simplifying the article's content. Makeb is not being delayed by 1.5/F2P and they apparently still have the intention of a "this year" release. As someone said in another thread, they can still intend to get it out this year as we reach 2013, which it definitely will be if 1.6 is PvP only.

With 1.5, the PTS was uploaded with the content in stages, so it's possible that 1.6 could be handled similarly. However there's also the (greater) possibility that it won't be.

If we take Mr. Amatengelo to be correct, this is still good-ish news for us.

(Cue people telling me I'm a horrible person for having hope )
1.6 looks like a very sparse patch so far, if the official patch notes are anything to go by. Or perhaps that is in comparison to all the recent excitement...

I'm still expecting we'll be seeing more in the coming patch and that the PTS will be updated. Maybe not Makeb, maybe not SGRs. I'd imagine if it was going to be Makeb, they would have said so already.

Tatile's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 04:13 PM | #3219
Perhaps, if they are putting Makeb as 1.6 (big if at the moment), they didn't want the PvP testing to be overshadowed by "omg planet "? This way they can have PvP'ers levelling on the new map (no character copies this time, again) and discussing their issues without having to compete with "look at this shiny rock I found, I hit this quest NPC with it".

PvP's last map came out in April? It came with Denova, at any rate. They need some "me" time.

Not that story players don't need "me" time, of course, but there's usually a lot more yelling of "how can you like story? GAWD" involved and it requires less balancing issues.

Semicolon used: Extended sentence!
It's Super Effective!
Comma fainted.

MatronAdena's Avatar

11.21.2012 , 04:15 PM | #3220
Quote: Originally Posted by Slaign View Post
a bunch of things.

It's not bad when I get going I can do just as big, But you bring up a ton of points more so about the companies that get so blown over and missed , or completely misdirected, more so with Disney- I love how people seem to completely assume they are this insane far fringe right minded company.
Sorry, I'm old and can only read complete words.