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Dread Guard Relic BiS?


Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.21.2012 , 11:01 AM | #61
Hello all! I am Dack from MMO-Mechanics. I wrote the analysis on the War Hero Relic of Boundless ages vs. the Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum...4-page-11.html

I just finished the Analysis of the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum....html#pid24331

Look for the post made by Dack.

The results come out that the BiS are the Dreadguard Relic of Boundless Ages and the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest (that's right, kinetic, not elemental)

DoT specs benefit more from the proc relics, but non-DoT specs still have the same BiS results.
Thank you
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.21.2012 , 11:07 AM | #62
Win. Thanks for doing the analysis, Dack!
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.21.2012 , 12:01 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
And therein lies the problem: there is no boss in current content which hits that hard. None. (I haven't finished parsing out NiM EC yet, but preliminary numbers still look well shy of NiM KP) In reality, the steady-state damage is about half that, with rare spikes that are much higher. If damage numbers were as high as you assume, then I fully agree that the self-heal is a poor substitute for more mitigation. Damage numbers are simply not that high (remember: wet noodle).

Your assumed balance of KE to IE damage is also quite far from the mark. Only 9.41% of damage is IE, which really isn't that much.

Finally, I'm not really following the expressions you give at various stat budgets. Could you explain your numbers a bit more? Also, your shield/absorb/defense ratios look quite off across the various stat budgets (my main sits at 1529 divided as 552/510/467 and is ideally balanced to within 0.0044%).
Are you saying that there are no bosses that have more than 10% internal/elemental damage? In that case you would have sometyhing like:

1600) 0.3636*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2215
1700) 0.3522*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2146

now to explain the numbers:
247/6 is the heals from the combat stance
(.02*HP*3)/15 is the heals from 3 stacks FL/TT self heals
515/25 is the heals from the relic

now we compute for 2000 dps

1600) 2000*0.2215-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=273 dps taken
1700) 2000*0.2146-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 284 dps taken

In this case the healing relic is better than the extra mitigation. However, if incoming damage reaches N such that

.2146*N-247/6-(1/15)*(0.6e-1*26000) = .2215*N-247/6-3*(0.2e-1*27000)*(1/15)-515*(1/25)

then 1700 buget is better... this N is 3565.

The stat weights I use are based on 1/2 90% accuracy and 1/2 100% accuracy, even though this number is not true around the board, I think it helps create a balanced build.

To determine optimal stat weights I used the following formula:

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+15+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+20+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):
> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

where d90 is the defence chance from 90% accuracy attacks
d100 is defense from 100% accuracy attacks
the +46 defense rating is there for rakata stim

the equation for squishiness (without armor and resists) is; ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))

where ac90 and ac100 is the fraction of attacks that are 90% and 100% accuracy.

I use the method of lagrange multipliers to find the 3 points for defensse absorbtion and shield to minimize the squishiness function.

In maple:

with(Student[MultivariateCalculus])
LagrangeMultipliers(ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr)), [abr+dr+shr-N], [dr, shr, abr])

where N is the total stat budget you hvae for shield+defense+absorb (in rating).

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.21.2012 , 12:30 PM | #64
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
Are you saying that there are no bosses that have more than 10% internal/elemental damage? In that case you would have sometyhing like:

1600) 0.3636*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2215
1700) 0.3522*[0.9*(1-0.4087)+0.1*(1-0.23)]=0.2146

now to explain the numbers:
247/6 is the heals from the combat stance
(.02*HP*3)/15 is the heals from 3 stacks FL/TT self heals
515/25 is the heals from the relic

now we compute for 2000 dps

1600) 2000*0.2215-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=273 dps taken
1700) 2000*0.2146-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 284 dps taken

In this case the healing relic is better than the extra mitigation. However, if incoming damage reaches N such that

.2146*N-247/6-(1/15)*(0.6e-1*26000) = .2215*N-247/6-3*(0.2e-1*27000)*(1/15)-515*(1/25)

then 1700 buget is better... this N is 3565.

The stat weights I use are based on 1/2 90% accuracy and 1/2 100% accuracy, even though this number is not true around the board, I think it helps create a balanced build.

To determine optimal stat weights I used the following formula:

> d90(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+15+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> d100(dr):=1/(100)*(10 +6+5+ 30 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.3 ) )^( ( (dr+46) / 50 ) / 0.55 ) )):
> sh(shr):=1/(100)*(5+15+20+ 50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( shr / 50 ) / 0.32 ) )):
> ab(abr):=1/(100)*(20+4+50 * ( 1 - ( 1 - ( 0.01 / 0.5 ) )^( ( abr / 50 ) / 0.18 ) )):

where d90 is the defence chance from 90% accuracy attacks
d100 is defense from 100% accuracy attacks
the +46 defense rating is there for rakata stim

the equation for squishiness (without armor and resists) is; ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))

where ac90 and ac100 is the fraction of attacks that are 90% and 100% accuracy.

I use the method of lagrange multipliers to find the 3 points for defensse absorbtion and shield to minimize the squishiness function.

In maple:

with(Student[MultivariateCalculus])
LagrangeMultipliers(ac90*(1-d90(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr))+ac100*(1-d100(dr))*(1-sh(shr)*ab(abr)), [abr+dr+shr-N], [dr, shr, abr])

where N is the total stat budget you hvae for shield+defense+absorb (in rating).
You have the wrong expression for the FL/TkT heal. Specifically, that ability ticks four times for a total of 8% of max HP. Correcting that expression yields a result of 237.233 with the heal proc relic and 249.367 for the added mitigation budget. 2000 is about the mean DPS for HM EC/TfB, so that's a pretty good benchmark.

However, there are a couple things you need to take into account. Your squishiness result is far, far lower than I can achieve. At a stat budget of 1526 and using the proc absorb relic, my optimized weighted squishiness is 0.3693. That is using the following weighting:
  • m/r+k/e : 71.80%
  • f/t+k/e : 18.78%
  • f/t+i/e : 9.41%

Thus, I strongly suspect that your formulae are inflating the value of mitigation stats by quite a bit. You are definitely weighting defense more highly than I do (by factoring in accuracy as a straight addition to the defense chance), but I need to do some serious combat log perusal before I can conclude anything about that. My formulae may simply be wrong here.

In any case, the conclusion stands that the heal proc relic is still (currently) better than an additional 100 stat points. Once bosses reach a damage value sufficient to flip the numbers, we can reevaluate. At that point though, we will have bigger problems with the self-heal as a general mechanic.

I don't have full damage numbers yet for NiM EC, but preliminary results suggest that damage was buffed by about 15%. That puts average pre-mitigation boss DPS at 2300 in NiM EC/TfB, which is still *far* below the tipping point on the self heal relic. It is worth noting that NiM KP is already above the tipping point, with an average DPS of 3991. I don't consider that op to be current content, and we already knew that shadows/assassins had balance issues when tanking those bosses.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.21.2012 , 12:56 PM | #65
I do appreciate this type of analysis having a civil back and forth discourse with the mathematical rigor behind our staements being transparent. The philosophy behind assuming 50/50 between accuracy and kinetic/elemental is to create a build that is well rounded for any encounter you might face (some bosses have all/no tech and some bosses have all/no elemental). Obviously there is an optimum build for each boss if you take their accuracy into account, however, you cant really build to compensate for internal/elemental... except for having a HP/heals build over a mitigation build.... which is still a rich debate.

i still think that the 85% downtime of the healing relic, as well as the overheal, are somewhat good arguments against using it.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.21.2012 , 02:23 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
I do appreciate this type of analysis having a civil back and forth discourse with the mathematical rigor behind our staements being transparent. The philosophy behind assuming 50/50 between accuracy and kinetic/elemental is to create a build that is well rounded for any encounter you might face (some bosses have all/no tech and some bosses have all/no elemental). Obviously there is an optimum build for each boss if you take their accuracy into account, however, you cant really build to compensate for internal/elemental... except for having a HP/heals build over a mitigation build.... which is still a rich debate.
I think it is an interesting question, trying to optimize for any encounter you might face. That's actually precisely why I use the mean damage output of each type to compute weightings. Thus, I sum up all m/r+k/e damage, all f/t+k/e damage, etc. The resulting weightings produce a build which is overall optimal, but sub-optimal on a per-boss basis. Sub-optimally on a per-boss basis is unavoidable without regearing between each fight, so I'm not sure it's worth dwelling too much on this inevitability.

Most bosses do stay fairly close to the mean in terms of damage types. There are some outliers, like Soa and Kephess v2, but those are exceptions. So, it seems that optimizing for the mean is unlikely to yield results that are *too* far from optimal on a per-boss basis.

Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
i still think that the 85% downtime of the healing relic, as well as the overheal, are somewhat good arguments against using it.
Downtime seems like a valid argument to me. It definitely results in a far spikier survivability profile.

However, overheal is a non-issue for the same reason that overheal on a self-heal can be discarded, at least as far as mitigation is concerned. The reason for this is that overheal on a self-heal is exactly the same as a healer overhealing on the tank. Think about it. If the tank has 2% less mitigation and proportionally more self-heal, there is no difference in the amount of output required from the healer for the tank to stay neutral. If the healer makes no changes, the self-heal will have 0% overheal. However, if the healer increases output to a higher level, they may not see overheal in their own logs, but the self-heal overheal will rise significantly. This is unnecessary healing, since the self-heal would have earned that HP back, given the chance. Thus, it is exactly the same as healer overheal and should be counted as such.

For this reason, I think we are justified in counting the self-heal towards survivability in the same fashion as mitigation, without deflating to adjust for potential overheal. This counts for the healing relic just as it counts for the conventional self-heal.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
11.21.2012 , 02:25 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
Hello all! I am Dack from MMO-Mechanics. I wrote the analysis on the War Hero Relic of Boundless ages vs. the Campaign Relic of Boundless Ages here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum...4-page-11.html

I just finished the Analysis of the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages vs. the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest here: http://mmo-mechanics.com/swtor/forum....html#pid24331

Look for the post made by Dack.

The results come out that the BiS are the Dreadguard Relic of Boundless Ages and the Dread Guard Relic of the Kinetic Tempest (that's right, kinetic, not elemental)

DoT specs benefit more from the proc relics, but non-DoT specs still have the same BiS results.
Thank you
For the kinetic relic to be more effective does that only require a 20% armor debuff on a boss?

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.21.2012 , 03:09 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by nbayer View Post
For the kinetic relic to be more effective does that only require a 20% armor debuff on a boss?
I was told that with one 20% armor debuff on the boss, or ops dummy, the relic procs for 218. I do not have the daily comms to test this, but if so then the kinetic is better. If someone could give me that information that would be amazing. (You could buy the relic and sell it back if it doesn't work)

EDIT: Ahha! Talked to a friend in MoX, the Kinetic does 219 damage with a 20% armor debuff. It is superior in an operation.
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

nbayer's Avatar


nbayer
11.21.2012 , 03:29 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
I was told that with one 20% armor debuff on the boss, or ops dummy, the relic procs for 218. I do not have the daily comms to test this, but if so then the kinetic is better. If someone could give me that information that would be amazing. (You could buy the relic and sell it back if it doesn't work)

EDIT: Ahha! Talked to a friend in MoX, the Kinetic does 219 damage with a 20% armor debuff. It is superior in an operation.
Great, thanks for the confimation

Vesaerys's Avatar


Vesaerys
11.21.2012 , 04:27 PM | #70
delete