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Problem Resolved


Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.21.2012 , 02:05 PM | #1
Get it? Because it's about resolve!

Let me start off by saying this is not meant to be a perfect fix to CC in SWTOR, but a realistic fix based on what I have understood from BW to be their goals. (Alright, some of the changes may be out of the realm of what they are willing to do)

The problems as I see them today

1) One person can be without control of their character for entirely too long: The downside to this being that the person being controlled has a significant portion of their time spent twiddling their fingers. It makes for a boring game. It is the biggest complaint that people have about CC

2) The abundance of hard CC encourages the philosophy of using stuns as openers: Most classes do not need CC as an offensive tool, but almost all can and do use them this way.

3) Roots and snares are not part of resolve: I may get flamed for this one, but read the solutions later on before you judge me.

4) Immunity lowers quickly: All of your effort to live through the stuns and save that CC breaker for full resolve is for not when you are stunned again not 10 seconds later.

So how do we fix resolve?

1) Stop resolve gained from ticking down until it would actually empty:
What I mean by this is that if I were to be stunned in the current system, my resolve would fill up halfway. After that effect wears off, it slowly ticks down until it's empty again assuming I do not have any control placed on me during this time. I would propose that the ticking down does not happen, but at the time it would have completely disappeared, it goes away at that time.

There would be 2 thresholds. Resolve at halfway and empty. Thus if you have more than half your resolve filled, it will go down to being half filled when the proper amount of time elapses. Then it will go down to being empty when the proper amount of time has elapsed from then.

The reason I think this is an improvement is that it reduces the amount of times you can be put under controlling effects in a short timeframe (single fight), without changing the length of time over a prolonged period (multiple fights). Let's have some fun with made up numbers.

Example1: I am stunned for 4 seconds. I have half my resolve filled. After the effects of this wear off, it will tick down each second for 10 seconds until my resolve bar is empty again (not sure on actual times in game now). 2 seconds after the stun ends, I am stunned again, which doesn't quite fill my resolve bar.

Example2: I am stunned for 4 seconds. I have half my resolve filled. After the effects of this wear off, I keep the same amount of resolve for 10 seconds and then it goes away. 2 seconds after the stun ends, I am stunned again, which fills my resolve bar and I can use my CC breaker at this time.

2) Pause the decrease in resolve for 30 seconds if killed during immunity period:
My reasoning here is that there is no reason to have your resolve fill up only to watch it go away in spawn. 30 seconds (arbitrary time) is enough time to get respawned and back to the fight and actually utilize that immunity the other team so foolishly gave you.

3) Put 100% snares/roots on their own resolve bar:

This change is mostly for chain leap roots in huttball, so the mechanics are geared specifically for that. It would need to be worked out through testing for maximum effectiveness, but essentially you would get root immunity for 7-8 seconds after being rooted twice within 5 seconds. Thus the first two roots would still work, but any more would not affect you for the next 7-8 seconds. I'd like to see some people score some goals every now and then rather than being rooted to death in front of the goal line. It has to be a short immunity however, so that it isn't affecting kite/antikite mechanics from one fight to the next.

4) Change many of the hard stuns now either to channels or mezzes:

CC needs to be in warzones for strategic purposes. It helps to capture objectives, it helps to peel DPS on healers, and it offers the chance to escape a fight or gain ground on an opponent. I think most classes should have CC abilities similar to sents/maras. An AOE mezz and a channeled stun. Both of these types of abilities can fulfill the purposes that I outlined at the start of this paragraph, without causing the problem I originally listed of opening up on people that are literally stunned to death. The only way this would happen now is if someone channels a stun on you and other teammates take you out.

There will, of course, be exceptions. Scoundrel/Operative is based around the ability to sneak up on you, stun you, and kill you (thus why everyone complained until they were nerfed into the ground in 1.2). Some specs (Immortal Jugg for instance) can talent to have their channeled stun work without channeling and I see no reason to change those. But let's encourage people to use CC in a strategic way as they are really meant to be rather than a fun sucking, stun to death, zerg fest.

Why this fits into BW's philosophy so far

1) It doesn't go against their most recent change in 1.4:

I understand wanting to keep people from roaming around with full resolve because of uncoordinated teams. This idea actually made sense when I read it, but in practice caused quite a few problems. With my changes to how resolve decreases, it will prevent some of the extra stuns affecting people since you can no longer wait a few seconds after the stun wears off to stun and not fill resolve. It will not affect uncoordinated groups who stun someone at the same time or right after each other, because it will still only partially fill resolve rather than fully filling it as it would pre 1.4. It still rewards teams for being coordinated without strictly penalizing PUGs.

2) It is not an entirely new system or complete rework

There are many other issues I need BW to deal with in game as well, so I don't need them spending 5 months designing a completely new system.

So what do you think?

I'm sure I'm not the only person out there with some ideas and I can certainly change my views on things if you provide a persuasive argument. I encourage anyone who reads this to give feedback on my ideas. If you have a scenario that makes one of these ideas super OP, let me know (maybe with some ideas to fix it?). If you have an idea of your own, I'm happy to steal it for my own use and add it to my post. I also don't know if all the changes are necessary, so let me know which ones you think are most promising. I think we all know that resolve is an issue at the moment, I'd just rather find a solution than complain about the problem.
I have opinions and stuff

MiaRB's Avatar


MiaRB
11.21.2012 , 02:10 PM | #2
the problem with CC is 100% from stunbubbles. as it is now, cant do a WZ without having everyone running around with stunbubbles up pretty much 100% of the time. if BW fixes that, then CC really isnt bad or a problem... except for people who think PVP should be 100% CC free.
can't wait for this game to come out!

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
11.21.2012 , 02:14 PM | #3
Dont nerf me bro! << every combat/carnage player in the game. All your other changes are well thought out and I think would in fact greatly improve CC in the game. I am impressed sir, you put alot of thought into this thread. I dont know about ever putting snares on any kind of resolve system. Roots would change the gameplay of more than just sent/mara despite my initial sentence.
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GM of 3 dead guilds and counting.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.21.2012 , 02:20 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by Crawelc View Post
Dont nerf me bro! << every combat/carnage player in the game. All your other changes are well thought out and I think would in fact greatly improve CC in the game. I am impressed sir, you put alot of thought into this thread. I dont know about ever putting snares on any kind of resolve system. Roots would change the gameplay of more than just sent/mara despite my initial sentence.
I agree, and it was the latest addition to my ideas. I think the chain-rooting is what needs to end. Which is why I advocate it only for 100% movement impairing effects, only if it happens multiple times in an extremely short time span (5 seconds or so) and only provide immunity for a very short time frame (7-8 seconds, possibly lower). It would also require quite a bit of testing to ensure it does not impact the ability of melee to prevent kiting.

I fully agree partial snares should not have any type of immunity bar.

Edit: And thank you for at least one positive comment on the thread!
I have opinions and stuff

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.21.2012 , 02:26 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by MiaRB View Post
the problem with CC is 100% from stunbubbles. as it is now, cant do a WZ without having everyone running around with stunbubbles up pretty much 100% of the time. if BW fixes that, then CC really isnt bad or a problem... except for people who think PVP should be 100% CC free.
While I agree that bubble stun is a problem in the current environment and don't particularly enjoy the idea of CC that is not controlled by the caster, CC has always been a problem. People didn't coin "stun wars" for nothing. Also, with the change I suggest, bubble stun will go back to being a random, worthless, don't-take-it-because-the-whole-other-team-will-always-have-full-resolve ability that no one will waste points on. I think then it will need a rework to make it worth speccing into, but that's a whole other conversation.
I have opinions and stuff

UGLYMRJ's Avatar


UGLYMRJ
11.21.2012 , 02:30 PM | #6
Glad you posted it... a lot of what I think are good ideas. They sound good on paper anyways. Not sure how I feel about the snare/root thing since many classes rely on these things far too heavily and it would also make less use of abilities such as Hydraulic Overides, and using the marauder/sentinel cloak ability to remove snares and roots.

I think that idea changes to much of the root design of PvP. Pun intended.

Other than that... I like it.

It actually brought up another idea that crossed my mind while reading this. What if resolve DID tick down... just as it does now. Same speed, same builds (except for maybe stun bubble) and only change the immunity. Make immunity for the duration of that bar even if it's not full. I get stunned... I get resolve for X amount of seconds and I get immunity for X amount of seconds.

This may also be a bit too much and would make sap caps more difficult but not impossible. But maybe a tweak of this idea could be an improvement as well.

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
11.21.2012 , 02:37 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I agree, and it was the latest addition to my ideas. I think the chain-rooting is what needs to end. Which is why I advocate it only for 100% movement impairing effects, only if it happens multiple times in an extremely short time span (5 seconds or so) and only provide immunity for a very short time frame (7-8 seconds, possibly lower). It would also require quite a bit of testing to ensure it does not impact the ability of melee to prevent kiting.

I fully agree partial snares should not have any type of immunity bar.

Edit: And thank you for at least one positive comment on the thread!
The problem with that is I have no hard cc, I have played combat/carnage across 3 toons to 50 and fully geared since early access. I played it because it wasnt the fotm spec and because I LOVE the battlefield control you get with 3x3 second roots on seperate cooldowns. The change you suggest would only allow me to use 2 and be done for quite a bit of time.
Imprimis <Fight><Redemption><Conquest><Super Bads><Murica Force><The Cream><RSU>
All Imprimis All the time.
GM of 3 dead guilds and counting.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.21.2012 , 02:38 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by UGLYMRJ View Post
Glad you posted it... a lot of what I think are good ideas. They sound good on paper anyways. Not sure how I feel about the snare/root thing since many classes rely on these things far too heavily and it would also make less use of abilities such as Hydraulic Overides, and using the marauder/sentinel cloak ability to remove snares and roots.

I think that idea changes to much of the root design of PvP. Pun intended.

Other than that... I like it.

It actually brought up another idea that crossed my mind while reading this. What if resolve DID tick down... just as it does now. Same speed, same builds (except for maybe stun bubble) and only change the immunity. Make immunity for the duration of that bar even if it's not full. I get stunned... I get resolve for X amount of seconds and I get immunity for X amount of seconds.

This may also be a bit too much and would make sap caps more difficult but not impossible. But maybe a tweak of this idea could be an improvement as well.
I think your idea could work, but I think it will be a little hard for less experienced players to be able to strategically use their CC breaker. In the current environment, you only have to know not to use it unless you have full resolve or you will lose the objective without breaking it early. In your system, it is up to the player to know what CC abilities the other class has, pay attention to what they have used, and save the CC breaker for the right time.

The biggest pitfall I could see wouldn't be the solo sap (just wait until immunity wears off to stealth out and sap again), but the chain CC to cap. Currently, you could CC back to back if they don't have their CC breaker. Under the proposed system, they would be immune after the first CC runs out and stop the cap while immune.
I have opinions and stuff

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.21.2012 , 02:44 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Crawelc View Post
The problem with that is I have no hard cc, I have played combat/carnage across 3 toons to 50 and fully geared since early access. I played it because it wasnt the fotm spec and because I LOVE the battlefield control you get with 3x3 second roots on seperate cooldowns. The change you suggest would only allow me to use 2 and be done for quite a bit of time.
And this is why I need you types around. I suppose it's leap, ravage, and the saber throw (?). Perhaps my idea could be reworked. How about 2 people can be using roots, but a third person adding a root would give root immunity (or possibly just immunity to roots from anyone after the initial two)? Then carnage/combat can root you as many times as they want and if someone else leaps in to help it won't affect them, but it still helps with preventing chain rooting for huttball carriers unless you have a class specifically specced to do that.
I have opinions and stuff

Crawelc's Avatar


Crawelc
11.21.2012 , 02:50 PM | #10
That may be a thought, seems like the code would be above my pay grade but I imagine they could do something like that.
Imprimis <Fight><Redemption><Conquest><Super Bads><Murica Force><The Cream><RSU>
All Imprimis All the time.
GM of 3 dead guilds and counting.