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DPS question


DarthMetier's Avatar


DarthMetier
11.19.2012 , 10:07 AM | #1
I am leveling a sorc. right now at level 26. I am not doing nor plan on doing any PvP anytime soon. I have been leveling with the lightning skill tree, but was wondering if I could get some advice from those who play the class. I am looking for a good build to level quickly and provide good dps once I hit level 50. Based on some trolling, I was wondering if the madness tree is ideally the best one to go with while leveling? Or is the lightning tree better? Or perhaps a hybrid? I've read that once I get to 50 that madness builds are the best dps for sorcs, but what about leveling? Thank you for any input.
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SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.19.2012 , 07:25 PM | #2
For leveling, I honestly like the hybrid specs that give you both Chain Lightning and Death Field. You use Chain Lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with instant cast Death Field. Follow with a Force Storm if needed and you will clear most trash groups in three casts, even groups of 4 or 5.

I personally prefer the old 0/13/28 hybrid build because it gives you great AOE mixed with some of the upper-tier madness boosts that will help you in boss fights. You can actually go with even more AOE if you put at least 15 points into Lightning Storm and Lightning Effusion, letting you use instant Chain Lightnings. But that may be more than you actually need at the sacrifice of single-target DPS.

End game, full Lightning or Madness is where it's at. I prefer Madness for mobility.

Argure's Avatar


Argure
11.21.2012 , 12:50 AM | #3
While levelling I went up in Lightning first to gain Chain Lightning and have it proc off Force Storm. Then I got Death Field. Combine this with the AoE that Andronikos and Ashara can use (trigger them manually), and you can kill large packs at immense speed. The single target damage is lacking, unfortunately, but those are not as much present as groups of 3-4 mobs.
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.21.2012 , 09:33 AM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
For leveling, I honestly like the hybrid specs that give you both Chain Lightning and Death Field. You use Chain Lightning as an opener on trash groups and then follow with instant cast Death Field. Follow with a Force Storm if needed and you will clear most trash groups in three casts, even groups of 4 or 5.

I personally prefer the old 0/13/28 hybrid build because it gives you great AOE mixed with some of the upper-tier madness boosts that will help you in boss fights. You can actually go with even more AOE if you put at least 15 points into Lightning Storm and Lightning Effusion, letting you use instant Chain Lightnings. But that may be more than you actually need at the sacrifice of single-target DPS.

End game, full Lightning or Madness is where it's at. I prefer Madness for mobility.

Actually, the single target dps of 0/18/23 is the same as full madness for me, but with much better force management.

I pally the loss of higher dot damage by using shock on cooldown, which the better force management allows. Its very high dps, and if the Gods of RnG likes you, awesome burst if Wrath pop in each FL, Lightning barrage and insta force lightning, I got up to 1300 dps on elites, versus a constant of 1k about with my current gear.

On a 5 minute parsing on a dummy, both reported 1050 dps about.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.21.2012 , 06:50 PM | #5
Even before the nerf, 0/18/23 was less DPS than 0/13/28. The only thing the 0/18/23 build gives you is extra force management, but I can't think of a situation leveling where running out of force was an issue. That's really only possible in raid boss fights. I can see wanting to go higher up the lightning tree for instant-Chain Lightning procs, but the problem I have with those builds is that they start to confuse your rotation. You end up needing both force lightning and lightning strike for procs, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.21.2012 , 07:34 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
Even before the nerf, 0/18/23 was less DPS than 0/13/28. The only thing the 0/18/23 build gives you is extra force management, but I can't think of a situation leveling where running out of force was an issue. That's really only possible in raid boss fights. I can see wanting to go higher up the lightning tree for instant-Chain Lightning procs, but the problem I have with those builds is that they start to confuse your rotation. You end up needing both force lightning and lightning strike for procs, and that just doesn't make a lot of sense.
Its situationnal sure. But damage is the same since madness on a constant dps burns force. Pre nerf of 0/13/28 sure, you blew chain lightning on wrath anyway. But now, you still cast lightning strike with extra wrath proc. So it sometimes also proc a chain lightning to add to your rotation, and also I cast shock every 6 seconds, something pure madness can't do often since it leads to lack of force.

Its not a fixed rotation, sure its a lot more bursty, but that chain lightning every 10-15 sec with the higher dps value of shock with chain shock i think cover it, and give me more flexibility, mostly at the cost of on-demand burst.

Rotation is a priority list that looks like that pretty much:

-affliction
-death field
-FL till wrath procs (normally one or 2)
- wrath powered Crushing darkness

Then its a priority list.

If wrath is procced and CD not within 3 sec of coming off cd
Shock
Lightning strike

If wrath is not procced
-Lightgning barrage FL
-shock
-FL

Instant CL last for a few seconds, so single target you don't HAVE to cast it ASAP, and it looks a bit like that:

Shock
Wrath powered lightning strike
Chain lightning


Top priority remains holding dots and DF deathmarms on the target. I normally try to sync DF and CD to simplify thing.

But pretty much getting same dps when going full madness or 18/23. I simply have more flexibility and AoE.

So yes, its more complex (I realize that trying to explain it) but parser says I pull good numbers for my gear, knowing sorc single-target dps is currently lacking a bit compared to mara.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
11.22.2012 , 12:40 AM | #7
You might feel like it does the same DPS, but it doesn't. These builds have been tested with parsers and SimC data. For one, a Wrath-proc'd lightning strike does less damage than simply spamming force lightning. Every time you use lightning strike, you are gimping your DPS. And if you use wrath on lightning strike, you risk it not being available off cooldown for Crushing Darkness.

As for Madness eating force, that just isn't the case. It's actually a force positive rotation if you put points into electric induction. Even if you don't, you will never run out of force while leveling. Fights simply don't last long enough. Same goes for the 0/13/28 hybrid. Both give you better DPS than a 0/18/23 build.

Put simply, if you get the same DPS with a 0/18/23 build as you do with full madness, you aren't running full madness properly.

verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.22.2012 , 12:57 AM | #8
I'm not eyeballing numbers here. I parsed both, and my rotation for the 0/18/23 does the same damage about. I don't remember making too many mistakes with madness either, and as said priority remains CD with wrath, but when its on a 15 sec cd with more than 6 sec remaining, I'll shoot lightning strikes with it, and they normally do around 2k, compared to 1,1k ticks on FL on crits. The kicker comes when CL also proc, giving me a noticeable burst. Madness does keep the advantage of being internal damage, but it seems like the way I'm running it works well for me. Beong a subscriber I always parse with different spec to see their progression, but results i got are coherent with expected dps for a sorc with my gear, and all very close to each other, weither we are talking about madness, lightning (was my lowest, but also the one about which I'm less sure I'm optimizing)

As far as FP and raid went, on the few I did it seems I pull my weight, and even sometimes pull from the tank at start if I'm not careful, which means I'm the 2nd highest threat at that point. So does madness beats it single-target wise? Maybe. It would be strange if it didn't. But its perfectly viable as a DPS build endgame from what I see up to now.

I however have yet to try the 13/28 build which does seem nice by higher dot effectiveness, at the cost of slightly reducted AoE effectiveness.

Do understand I'm not "camped" on my position here. Simply experimenting. I do suspect tough, that as my alacrity increases FL will start pulling ahead more as far as dps goes.

Edit 1 : 2 typo and small conclusion

Edit 2 : edit message :P

OlosBC's Avatar


OlosBC
11.22.2012 , 12:59 AM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by SoonerJBD View Post
You might feel like it does the same DPS, but it doesn't. These builds have been tested with parsers and SimC data. For one, a Wrath-proc'd lightning strike does less damage than simply spamming force lightning. Every time you use lightning strike, you are gimping your DPS. And if you use wrath on lightning strike, you risk it not being available off cooldown for Crushing Darkness.

As for Madness eating force, that just isn't the case. It's actually a force positive rotation if you put points into electric induction. Even if you don't, you will never run out of force while leveling. Fights simply don't last long enough. Same goes for the 0/13/28 hybrid. Both give you better DPS than a 0/18/23 build.

Put simply, if you get the same DPS with a 0/18/23 build as you do with full madness, you aren't running full madness properly.
Agree with all of this pretty much.

However, 0/18/23 would probably work fine for soloing dailies, where the better AOE would be nice, but in a raid situation, it'll be a good bit inferior.
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verfallen's Avatar


verfallen
11.22.2012 , 10:18 PM | #10
Ok so parsed the different spec a bit. They all gave 1100 dps.

I currently have still mostly non end-game gear, armoring are the 23 from daily comm vendor, enhencements and mods are mostly 22s purple, got columni gloves, boot and offhand, with rakata stalker and columni force-master
Implants, and tionese mainhand.

My stats are 702 bonus damage, 34,34% crit, 74,77% surge and 8,52% alacrity, if any of you want to check. Maybe I'm not playing madness optimally, but I don't believe I make a critical mistake either, and that the dps I'm giving you fits my current gear limit.

The "force positive" rotation is pretty much lightning and dots, DF on CD as far as i could tell, shock used very carefully. It does mean my burst is more on demand, at the cost of force (suddenly, shock on cooldown) while what I'm running now is pure random procs, which I grant is a weakness that can be rather critical in some boss phases. But the sustained seems comparable. The stronger AoE comes useful on thrash packs, like the EV ones in between annihilator droid and Gharj.

So top dps? Maybe not. Good dps? I think so. Fairly sure I beat pure lightning in an ops fight where you have to move at any rate.