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Let the Jedi use his light saber

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Let the Jedi use his light saber

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.20.2012 , 06:58 PM | #71
Quote: Originally Posted by Elyxin View Post
Personally, I could care less. there are odd times that I wish i could just hit double strike instead of casting another spell, or waiting for the CD on project to come up. but I usually just DoT the mob and move on...he'll die very shortly from that. As long as it doesn't top ANY of our other primary skills...who cares?

although I find it very interesting that the OP states that its not about the damage...but the entire conversation has revolved around you guys breaking down...the damage. if it's not about the damage, then why do you even care how much it does? really....if it was all about using your lightsaber, then you can already USE IT. you have 2 very useable skills that you can spam all day long, and you get them at level one. So it really IS about the damage

On another note....I remember some conversations with beta players....apparently the Sage was originally brought up with the idea of being a melee/range hybrid, bur for some reason unknown to the beta tester at the time, they had dropped most of their melee abilities. I wouldn't be surprised if the decided to keep DS low damage to try and keep sage's to ranged attacks.

Edit: already beaten to the punch on the beta point but the point made via the beta comments still stands wade...they purposefully kept melee damage low on the sage for some reason. balance makes sense.
How you mentioned, Sage/Sorc already can use melee skills, but lets be honest its viable for gray mobs (maybe, )))
So it have to get some upgrade to be viable, but this issue is not about the rise of AD's dps

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.21.2012 , 06:21 AM | #72
I have a spiffy idea. Why don't we take this argument to a specific place and say if you can't produce specific math, and demonstrate it is correct logic, and use it as a backup and talk about how it would act in reality, you don't post. 8) Or you don't post until you do!

I'm the only one who has produced numbers from specific game data. And I showed what it would do. And non of you can refute it based on the info. You can't even think it out. so when you can please put it up. Or try to and see if you can really understand the game mechanics instead of trying to state what you think others have done or intended to do!

It would resolve this whole argument much faster. Heck, it would actually get off the ground intelligently.

I'll give a specific example. If you give any assumption in your post don't do so unless you produce the specific math before hand showing how it is so. So if you say it is OP then give the math and numbers to say how it is OP so it can be looked at fully and refuted properly. This whole conversation will go a lot more smoothly. there doesn't seem to be a single person in these arguments or forums who knows how to do that.


Quote:
Edit: already beaten to the punch on the beta point but the point made via the beta comments still stands wade...they purposefully kept melee damage low on the sage for some reason. balance makes sense.
The problem is there is no difference between making it viable and making it extremely low! Leaving it in and making it completely unusable at high lvs is pointless. There is a lot of reason to potentially use the sword in given situations. you should have it as your baseline lowest and viable damage dealer. Heck being a lower end but slower spell it could even make a nice little burst damage for PVP if people get in too close. It would be very utilitarian for sages. Which is what they need the most of. And the free attack could obviously be very nice for anyone out of force.

Saying balance makes sense as an argument in an argument you stated you have no idea what the reason for does not make any sense. You said you had no idea then stated something requiring you too understand the very thing you just said you didn't know! You have no idea if it is balance. We are trying(or I am) to determine if it is. The BW team making pshycological mechanic to make people use range when it could be viable and still be low end makes no sense. The more likely reality is they just reduced it without thinking it out when they removed it and never finished the work.

I even noted:
Quote:
** I also had the idea to add a small 0.5% force regen(1.5% per swing) to the Saber Strike via skills or just given at some lv. And a slow down for Double Strike that is 10 seconds and stacks maybe x times and adds to the stack for each hit(2x per attack) for +10% slowdown per stack. Could be 5 possibly so you can get away or help in melee like you do with telekinetic throw if you want, and to help get away unlike TK throw since Tk throw goes away instantly and this would last 10 seconds. But those are just ideas.
This with the damage would not make it overpowered.

Again:

ECM = effective crit multiplier = Crit chance in % form 0.xx X multiplier in % 0.xx.

Base Melee: 336 - 505 Energy damage.

Strength (147) +29.4
Power (560) +128.8
Bonus +5%
Total: +166.1
Willpower (2166.7) +433.3
Force Power (1346) +309.6
bonus +5%
Total: +780.0


New bonus: +946.1 approximately


Weapon damage 1298.9 - 1476.35 (1387.63 average damage)

Sage Weapon attacks:

Double Strike:
Instant
Cost: 25 force
Range: 4m

Currently does 367-443 weapon damage twice.

That is 85% min damage on first and 75% of my max damage for the high end. You do two of those. Carry that logic and you get:

1096.4-1107.3 damage times two hits. (Average 1100 damage)

Lets see:
Double Strike with forcepower and willpower. Willpower adding to crit.
1100x2=2200/3=1466.67x1.1734(*0.34x0.51)= 1721dps. Edit: 1100x2=2200/3=1466.67x1.1623=1704.68DPS So 1700dps with a main attack of 2k dps.


Telekinetic Throw:
1000x4=4000/3=1333.33x1.15(alacrity)=1533.33x1.2023(effective crit mod for spells)=1843.56DPSx1.06(damage bonus)=1954.13DPS

FYI I did the crit bonus for spells wrong earlier. I forgot disturbance and telekinetic throw have a +6% to crit chance. and I forgot their 6% to damage.

Disturbance:
I estimate from the current ration to average damage of disturbance my layout from before will have disturbance with a base 1541.86 damage per hit.
1541.86/1.5=1028x1.15(alacrity)=1182.1x1.06(bonus damage)=1253x1.2023(ecm)=1506.43x1.2(proc bonus)= 1807.73DPS

Edit: I forgot the procted version doesn't use alacrity. So 1807.73/1.15=1572.15DPS

Project:
Estimated damage per hit base = 1822.67 damage

1822.67/1.5=1215x1.1717(lower ecm of other spells)=1423.6x1.225(proc effective dps bonus)=1743.9x1.06(damage bonus)=1848.54DPS


Now, let's look at full tree!
That would change Disturbance to:

1541.86/1.5=1028x1.15(alacrity)=1182.1x1.06(bonus damage)=1253x1.349865(ecm)=1679x1.09(30%proc of 30%)= 1830x1.03(force bonus damage)=1885 DPS.

1700 Double Strike DPS.... With forcepower Willpower and Crit from willpower!!


It would never go over any attack that was not supported properly in your tree! ever!

Andge's Avatar


Andge
11.21.2012 , 06:29 AM | #73
Yes, allow sages to use their saber once in a while.

Just as Shadows via the shared tree gets to use both saber and telekinetics etc.

Makes you feel more like a fully fledged Jedi.

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.21.2012 , 06:55 AM | #74
Quote: Originally Posted by aital
1. The problem is there is no difference between making it viable and making it extremely low! 2. Leaving it in and making it completely unusable at high lvs is pointless
1. If there is no difference between DoubleStrike being viable AND it being low (level?), then it follows that it is viable when low.
2. If the skill is viable when low, it is by definition not viable if high.
3. Now you want to suggest that it should be viable when high, which contradicts statement1.

Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
I'll give a specific example. If you give any assumption in your post don't do so unless you produce the specific math before hand showing how it is so. So if you say it is OP then give the math and numbers to say how it is OP so it can be looked at fully and refuted properly. This whole conversation will go a lot more smoothly. there doesn't seem to be a single person in these arguments or forums who knows how to do that.
Cool, I'm on it: I'll pop BW an email and ask them for query rights to their databases, from Beta up until now, so that we can run analyses on DPS boundary conditions and determine where DoubleStrike falls into that balance matrix. I'll have the info real soon. Until then I'll just have to go by what has been reported by others: that sage melee dmg was not given WP bonus because...
nvm

Quote:
Saying balance makes sense as an argument in an argument you stated you have no idea what the reason for does not make any sense.
No kidding.

Quote: Originally Posted by aital
This with the damage would not make it overpowered.
Once we get that analysis out of BW's database tables I'll be sure to confirm this claim.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.21.2012 , 06:58 AM | #75
Or you could learn math yourself and learn to argue. I've stated in my last post specific calculations. Try arguing based on those.

Please produce some math and show how. It's not that hard to work on. then show me where I am wrong or where you are right or anything else with some actual numbers please. Demonstrate your ability to think in the argument not somebody elses.

I'll do a second one for you!! 8D ooh the numbers are shiny!! soooo shinnyyy!!!!

MaxBonusDamageSage

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.21.2012 , 07:07 AM | #76
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
Or you could learn math yourself and learn to argue. I've stated in my last post specific calculations. Try arguing based on those.
No offence but there's no point in thoerising about figures. You've already shown that adding WP to melee adds 422.44 DPS (1721-1298.56: DoubleStrike).
The starting premise of this thought, er, experiment I suppose, is that BW balanced sages melee dmg output by removing WP bonus dmg. The only thing your calculation shows is that DPS will increase if WP is added and again no offence, if you were interested in the wider context of this discussion and not just putting forward your own calculations you'd have accepted that several posts ago!
As to your ideas on force regen and so on, they're ok I suppose. What do you want me to say?
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.21.2012 , 07:09 AM | #77
what broader context are you talking about. That is the info to understand sage balance.... Apply it. Those are DPS number, a rate(do you know what a rate is) not hit for hit numbers. That is the average. That is the context... If that number is lower it is balanced. I demonstrated the context already.

And those are not theories. Those are numbers directly from the game!!! The only assumption was the fact I took 85% and 75% from double strike BECAUSE it does that now at my gear lv on my data screen IN THE GAME! It's not going to vary that much.

The only other context you can add to this argument is in practice. Which has to take into account player ability and efficiency which invalidates your argument! That is the game info right there buddy!

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.21.2012 , 07:15 AM | #78
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
what broader context are you talking about.
You obviously can't determine balance by looking at Sage damage in isolation. Balance, damge balance, is the mean DPS output of classes compared to other classes. That's why I said you'd need to know DPS output since beta for all classes, the boundary conditions that BW determined are acceptable for each class, and only THEN start applying calcs to see if DPS is taken into or out of acceptable ranges.

I'll let you know when I get that reply from BW and see if I get query rights to their DB's.
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Aital's Avatar


Aital
11.21.2012 , 07:18 AM | #79
Um no it's not and yes you can. You just have to understand math properly. That is what a rate is(if you don't take everything into account it's not a correct rate hence DPS). It is hard math. It took into account the variables. I already did that. You don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about. Any variables beyond that stats are player ability and not taken into account for balance. Balance it determined by the hard boundaries which are mathematical. AKA the Peak potential of damage. Any other damage besides the peak, except a game error or programming error, is calculating within the boundries of peak and that is susceptible and the domain of player ability only, and is not usable as a balancing factor mathematically aka logically! the variation of skills in this point like hybrids do not matter. they are factored in already with how they designed the skill trees. The trees are designed to take out all of those factors already and DO!! I'm saying this specifically I'm not guessing!

It doesn't matter what any damage was since beta. It matters what it is now within the specific set of parameters of the skills and abilities. the math I demonstrated already took that into account. And this ability never going above main damage cannot raise the potential DPS meaning it cannot be a balance factor. That is the only thing logically in play to make it a balancing factor. I already took into account the logic of how the spell works before turning it into a Rate and giving my argument. There are no parameters that go outside the logic I stated for this example and argument. That is why it is not unbalancing!

BTW I AM A MATHEMATICIAN AND A PROGRAMMER!

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.21.2012 , 07:25 AM | #80
Quote: Originally Posted by Aital View Post
Balance it determined by the hard boundaries which are mathematical. AKA the Peak potential of damage.
Personally I'd define that as max damage. You wouldn't?
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny