Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Dread Guard Relic BiS?


dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.20.2012 , 05:29 PM | #41
I felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable PvE relic, and i did not take the static power into account... but I have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. they heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or PvP relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. for a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

people using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... please stop... you think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. on top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.

i appreciate all the valuable work keyboardninja has done for the tanking community, however, I disagree with his interpretation and quantification of survivability. I have had long conversations with ppl at mmomechanics about HP vs. mitigation, and from my analysis, we are better shooting for balanced builds (between the two) than going for one or the other in a diehard fashion. from typical calulations there is a 1% sacrafice in mitigation for every 100 points being switched between mitigation and endurance. what this means is that each HP accounts for less incoming damage, but is offset by selfheals... so if we assume that we are talking about the difference bwteen a mitigation pool of 1600 (with 27000 health) with a healing trinket and a 1700 (with 26000 HP) build then we have the following to consider:

1 HP=4.040 incoming damage for 1600
1 HP= 4.172 incoming damage for 1700

assumuing we have 5k incoming damage per second we end up with

1600) 5000*0.2475-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=1068 dps taken
1700) 5000*0.2397-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 1053 dps taken

(assuming 1/2 90% accuracy, 1/2 100% accuracy, 1/2 energy/kinetic and 1/2 elemental/internal)

where the following stat tables (prior to rakata fort stim) are used:

total defense shield absorb
1400 453 430 518
1500 471 479 550
1600 492 527 581
1700 514 575 611
1800 538 621 641
1900 563 667 670
2000 590 712 698


This article has shown that the healing proc relic does not decrease the damage taken per second as well as an additional 100 points of mitigation can

nikthequick's Avatar


nikthequick
11.20.2012 , 05:37 PM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
I felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable PvE relic, and i did not take the static power into account... but I have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. they heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or PvP relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. for a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

people using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... please stop... you think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. on top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.
So what would be the 2 BiS for both classes?

sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
11.20.2012 , 05:49 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
i felt bad for creating a thread in general asking when there would be a viable pve relic, and i did not take the static power into account... But i have read a lot of bad info in this thread, so i feel much better now.

Healing proc relics are bad, and ill tell u why. They heal for 3 seconds every 20 seconds, meaning they are doing nothing for the tank or healer for 17 seconds, whereas an on use or pvp relic will increase bonus healing consistently and controllably. For a healer its bad because it over heals mroe than anything else.

People using the klinetic instead of internal or elemental.... Please stop... You think 35% armor penetration is going to negate the other 85% of the armor? Also, most bosses have less internal;/elemental resistance than kinetic/energy. On top of that, some bosses might have m,ore armor than others, so the kinetic might be less than the internal/elemental.
85+35 = 120% ?

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.20.2012 , 05:55 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by nikthequick View Post
So this thread has been side-tracked and back so I have 1 easy question. What are currently the BiS relics for raiding Assasin Tanks & Annihilation Marauders?
Assassin tank:
  • Dread Guard Relic of Ephemeral Mending (best)
  • Elite War Hero Relic of Imperiling Serenity (second best)

Annihilation maurader:
  • Dread Guard Relic of Elemental Transcendence (best)
  • Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (second best)
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.20.2012 , 05:58 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by sankalp View Post
85+35 = 120% ?

for large values of 35 yes

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
11.20.2012 , 06:07 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Annihilation maurader:
  • Elite War Hero Relic of Boundless Ages (second best)
How do you figure this to be superior to the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages exactly? It's a greater power boost overall when used on CD, and applied situationally it will obviously pull ahead even further.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

dipstik's Avatar


dipstik
11.20.2012 , 06:08 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by nikthequick View Post
So what would be the 2 BiS for both classes?
sin tank: and of the elite war hero +120 mitigation stats. the absorb proc when at 1600 mitigation pool gives 0.3536 squishiness whereas 1700 gives 0.3522, so +100 is better than +455 of absorb for 6/20 of the time. i have already shown why the healing one is bad.

ive never played a merc spec, but typically, the dmg proc relics are best for classes which has a large amount of dots in order to ensure the proc has as much uptime as possible. i know for lethality and madness/hybrid using the PvP vs. the proc is a 10 dps difference about. the on use power has been shown to have a time average power superior to the PvP ones, but I have not seen conclusive sim data for mercs in regard to dmg proc vs. power pvp.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.20.2012 , 06:14 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by dipstik View Post
assumuing we have 5k incoming damage per second we end up with

1600) 5000*0.2475-(247/6+(.02*27000*3)/15+515/25)=1068 dps taken
1700) 5000*0.2397-(247/6+(.06*26000)/15)= 1053 dps taken

(assuming 1/2 90% accuracy, 1/2 100% accuracy, 1/2 energy/kinetic and 1/2 elemental/internal)
And therein lies the problem: there is no boss in current content which hits that hard. None. (I haven't finished parsing out NiM EC yet, but preliminary numbers still look well shy of NiM KP) In reality, the steady-state damage is about half that, with rare spikes that are much higher. If damage numbers were as high as you assume, then I fully agree that the self-heal is a poor substitute for more mitigation. Damage numbers are simply not that high (remember: wet noodle).

Your assumed balance of KE to IE damage is also quite far from the mark. Only 9.41% of damage is IE, which really isn't that much.

Finally, I'm not really following the expressions you give at various stat budgets. Could you explain your numbers a bit more? Also, your shield/absorb/defense ratios look quite off across the various stat budgets (my main sits at 1529 divided as 552/510/467 and is ideally balanced to within 0.0044%).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.20.2012 , 06:16 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurojiin View Post
How do you figure this to be superior to the Dread Guard Relic of Boundless Ages exactly? It's a greater power boost overall when used on CD, and applied situationally it will obviously pull ahead even further.
Annihilation doesn't have a lot of significant burst phases. Most of their damage is steady pressure, which implies that a constant buff is preferable to a situational burst. I haven't done the math on this spec though, to be honest, so others may have more authoritative information than I do.

Also, the DG relic of Boundless Ages has 82.5 time-averaged power when used on cooldown. That's merely 68.7% of the Elite War Hero power boost. Unless Ask Mr Robot hasn't updated yet…
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
11.20.2012 , 06:23 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by KeyboardNinja View Post
Also, the DG relic of Boundless Ages has 82.5 time-averaged power when used on cooldown. That's merely 68.7% of the Elite War Hero power boost.
Hmmm... I get 87.5 power averaged. Either way, when added to the passively itemised 47 power on the relic, that is greater than 120, no?
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin