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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Messiaah's Avatar


Messiaah
11.18.2012 , 05:13 PM | #31
We did 16man after we killed all bosses in 8man nightmare mode and we were also really surprised, that it is so challenging. After this disappointing 8man mode, we really enjoy 16man.
Maybe it is a bit easier when our characters, which have a lockout on nightmare mode, are available again because they've got the best equipment.

Thumbs up for Bioware!
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Kereg - Juggernaut Tank
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crazyBE's Avatar


crazyBE
11.18.2012 , 06:12 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
I'd have to agree, our guild is doing 16 man at the moment. We killed Toth and Zorn 5 different times with different 8 mans (clear it with one set of 8, then rotate in a few) in order to practice it before all 16 logged on.

We spent 1 hour on 8 man Toth and Zorn before we downed them then /stuck on the handler to that we didn't lock ourselves out.

In total it took my 16 man ops group 8 hours to down Toth and Zorn. 16 man seems to be in the right place, it's 8 man that's under-tuned.

Do not want a nerf. Make 8 man harder. It's supposed to be a nightmare!
It WAS supposed to be a nightmare until Bioware decided to mess things up and make it required to get the next tier of gear, completely destroying the purpose of nightmare raids (being insane, optional and very challenging).

Sydexlic's Avatar


Sydexlic
11.18.2012 , 06:18 PM | #33
It may be harder in 16m for NiM EC, but that wasn't the case for TfB HM, with the exception of the boss Terror from Beyond itself.

I know you feel like special snow flakes for having the tenacity to keep together 16 players in a game that has had rapidly dwindling numbers, but no, you don't deserve special treatment, as encounters will never be tuned exactly "the same" for 16 and 8m, just like classes will never be truly balanced in PvP. As can be seen in TfB, 16m was generally easier in my experience, in NiM EC, it may well be reversed, the next instance? Who knows, as long as it's ballpark, that's all you can expect.

DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.18.2012 , 06:51 PM | #34
8m NiM EC is easier. It's not debatable. It's not even close. It's more difficult by almost an entire order of magnitude. If you want to talk TFB HM then the first, second, fourth, and fifth bosses in 16m in TFB HM were also more difficult on 16m. The only fight easier on 16m in TFB was Operator.

If you think differently:

1. Haven't stepped into the zone on 16m
2. Want to make yourself feel better about your 8m team

Contrary to popular belief, we know this because we literally have 5 progression raid groups that have stepped foot into the zone (4 on 8m, 1 on 16m), not because we are a "B" team. Sorry, but some of the postulations here are sad troll attempts at best.
Moxboss - Founder of <Memories of Xendor> on Prophecy of the Five
Moxboss, Shadowcolt, Blacksteed, Duskfilly
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Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.18.2012 , 08:45 PM | #35
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkhorseForLife View Post
8m NiM EC is easier. It's not debatable. It's not even close. It's more difficult by almost an entire order of magnitude. If you want to talk TFB HM then the first, second, fourth, and fifth bosses in 16m in TFB HM were also more difficult on 16m. The only fight easier on 16m in TFB was Operator.

If you think differently:

1. Haven't stepped into the zone on 16m
2. Want to make yourself feel better about your 8m team

Contrary to popular belief, we know this because we literally have 5 progression raid groups that have stepped foot into the zone (4 on 8m, 1 on 16m), not because we are a "B" team. Sorry, but some of the postulations here are sad troll attempts at best.
Experienced 16 TFB HM for myself, the only boss that's more difficult is the last one, stop absolutizing, please. But I will not say anything about 16 EC NiM, that may never happen on TOFN Empire side. Gotta love this perennial whine about 16 v 8 ... you guys do realize not even the almighty WoW comes close to balancing 25 v 10? They've only tried to do that for years and years, and the raiding community there also whines constantly about it. Nothing is resolved there, why do you think whining here will resolve anything?

DarkhorseForLife's Avatar


DarkhorseForLife
11.18.2012 , 08:59 PM | #36
I'm "absolutizing" because there is an absolute answer.

Edit: Just because one game doesn't balance it right doesn't mean another game gets a free pass.
Moxboss - Founder of <Memories of Xendor> on Prophecy of the Five
Moxboss, Shadowcolt, Blacksteed, Duskfilly
Dimstallion, Shadepony, Luridfoal, Murkgelding
Check out MoX Parser! Real time raid meters and parsing!

Aerro's Avatar


Aerro
11.19.2012 , 12:56 AM | #37
My buddy was just messaging me earlier talking about how much of a joke 8man was... when their best DPS was tanking, they were using B and C team DPS and their healers were "bored".

Our healers in 16man in full BiS were ANYTHING but bored... and our DPS were busting their asses in order to not hit enrage for tanks. Sorry, but if you insist on 8man being harder- I suggest trying to field a 16man or at least go with another guild and see how just one person (anyone) dying means a wipe.
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Beef_Cake's Avatar


Beef_Cake
11.19.2012 , 03:13 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Dragonbgone View Post
@Chaqen: In order to practice the fights while we're waiting for 16 people to log on we break down into an 8 man group. During the hour and a half of practice time, we killed toth and zorn twice with one group, and two more times with 6 different people swapped in. (Then /stuck on the handler)

Toth and zorn on 8 man hit like flowers, comparatively. Then, on 16 NiM, Firebrand and Stormcaller make Toth and Zorn's damage almost negligible.

My guild has proven that 8 man is much easier.

@Donalj: We run 16 man because we can clear 8 man with ease. No, Messores Republicae would probably not be world first in 8 man, but 8 man is not enough of a challenge.
We do not care about epeen. We just want to be able to chew on something. 16 man NiM EC is the challenge that HARDCORE raiders, the ones that hoped this game would be better than WoW, want and crave so badly! We will stay in 16 man. This is where the top raiders belong. Screw gear, we want challenges.
My thoughts exactly.

We've felt 8 man Ops were harder than 16 man at first, considering that DPS was more forgiving in a 16 man environment. But to our surprise, 16 man despite the the amount of DPS, mechanics were the key factor along with the amount of organization it requires for a 16 man Operation. Just because your 8 man OPs group downs something without any real hitch, doesn't mean that a 16 man will be a breeze. We felt this as well until we ventured into the 16 man Operations and found that it wasn't a walk in the park as we thought it would be.

Yes, most groups can't field a 16 man Operation, so please don't knock the groups who can. We push ourselves to the limits with the new Mechanics of the NiM Denova and so far we love the challenge. We just hope others venture into the scene and realize what we've come to love. A Challenge and a well organized group of people to achieve a goal such as this. But I will say, after hours of busting our heads against the wall in our 16 man OPs and then switching to a 8 man OPs, it truly was a night and day feel. The 8 man was much easier to accomplish what we wanted, and that was to learn the mechanics and memorize them, so when we went back to our 16 man we were able to find the different things we needed to do as a 16 man Ops in order to adapt our group to the fight and complete the challenge we had in front of us.

Good luck in your Ops and hope to see you in the charts!
Nakiri - 50 Sage Healer / DPS
Crafter for the Republic - Prophecy of the Five

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.19.2012 , 04:06 AM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by DarkhorseForLife View Post
I'm "absolutizing" because there is an absolute answer.

Edit: Just because one game doesn't balance it right doesn't mean another game gets a free pass.
Your "absolute answer" does not apply to every boss in TFB HM nor EC HM, but for EC NiM. This game does not get a free pass, but it will continue to show this imbalance between 16 and 8, and your "special snowflake" whining will not change the situation. The only thing that Bioware can do is allow PTS transfers for EVERYONE and thus provide more and efficient testing, so we do not have nonsense like Col. Vorgath NiM ...

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.19.2012 , 05:29 AM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Krewel View Post
. . . the raiding community there also whines constantly about it. Nothing is resolved there, why do you think whining here will resolve anything?
We aren't whining, MoXboss isn't whining, right now we're just sharing desperation about he difficulty.
Now, the thing that are annoying both him and myself is that because we 16 man guilds have had a depressingly slower progression than the 8 man guilds, we have been being looked down upon because the community consensus is that "8 man is more difficult than 16 man" without many of the people claiming this having run 16 man content.

I want 2 things: the thought that our guilds are bad because we're going slower in 16 man.
and I want people to be encouraged to run 16 man content because I WANT COMPETITION.
Messores was founded to be a competitive PvE guild, and we're losing competition because most of the 16 man guilds have quit.

I don't want bragging rights over 8 man guilds, I don't want elitism either way, but I certainly don't want being called out on the fleet as a "****** PvE guild" because we're only 1/4 NiM EC.
. : Messores Republicae : .
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