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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 10:52 AM | #921
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
And just how long do you think it will take to develop, refine, test and implement option two? Maybe by patch 2.8.3 we'll have the super-balanced, super-fun match making system that everyone seems to want? Awesome! But how many players will be around by then let me ask?

Option two is a great idea...

...on paper because it is unrealistic at the present. It will take an insane amount of money and time to develop and implement. By which time pretty much all PuGs, F2P and casual subbers will have already left the game. We won't be needing a match making system by then because there won't be people around to PvP. We really should poll the new/returning players how much fun they have in PvP and if they plan to stick around or even do the unthinkable and sub.

Then what will all the war hero premades that laugh hysterically with frothing mouths and madly flashing eyes and feel a sudden rush of adulation and exultation for successfully killing someone who had 6 or 7k less HP anyway in two shots do when they suddenly run out of PuGs, casuals and F2P to slaughter? Some will stay and play against other premades in rateds, most will leave because they don't like even competition. That will be the sad but not surprising end of SWTOR PVP.

So, we can sit back, debate all day about a perfect match making system whose release will coincide with Mitt Romney's 2016 presidential inauguration, grab some popcorn and watch SWTOR PVP wither and die. Because I can guarantee you that system we want is so complex that it's impossible to implement in the near future.

The developers need to do something RIGHT NOW and ASAP if they are serious about making new and returning players actually want to play pvp. I see absolutely no reason why we couldn't try split queues for a short time. Or even allow people to optionally turn premades off (hint hint at a certain game), so whoever wants to play against premades while solo queuing (guess how many will) will be allowed to do so. It doesn't have to be permanent, just to see if it would alleviate some of the burden that is already weighing down new people so much.

You say if a man is in critical condition and you administer the wrong procedure he could die? True. The difference is: if you administer the wrong treatment he COULD die. If you don't do anything he WILL die. (And the kind of match making we all want is tantamount to doing nothing because it is unfathomably far in the future.)

MMOs are always developing and evolving. I'm sure all the reasonable premaders (who want more than fast and easy comms and kills) and solo players would be interested in a short experiment. (We could also try experimenting with gear and a Recruit bracket.) It's just those abovementioned premades that complain who suddenly feel naked when they enter a warzone, where they cant kill everyone in 3 GCDs.
Are you a programmer? Have you ever programmed a matching algorithm? Do you know how many Programmers Bioware has? Do you know how to split queue's?

I'm going to guess no to pretty much all of that. Simply put, you (and I) do not know how long it would take Bioware to do either option. As stated before, I do not believe bioware has the luxury to make another stupid hasty fix. We need a "real" solution to the "correct" problem.

Fyi. No one likes being lab rats. Should see how many people complained about ToR being incomplete, and essentially Paying to Beta Test in the first 6 months of this game.

HuaRya's Avatar


HuaRya
11.18.2012 , 11:55 AM | #922
Quote: Originally Posted by Arkerus View Post
They did this in WoW and it worked great. Groups of 4 or more had to go I to the premade queue because premade offers significant advantages over pug.
I'm starting to notice on both faction sides of my server that there are pvp'ers you never see on your team. You only ever see them on the opposite (usually winning) team. This indicates to me that what the queue matching system tends to do is match the larger groups to fight a teams consisting of solos. You would think it would want to match with equal sized groups but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So the larger your group the chances of playing teams consisting of solo pvp'ers in increases. And I think the more experienced guilds have figured this out.

meaning: If two groups of four queue together it will be highly probable that 4 out of 5 of their matches will be against solos (let the pugstomping begin). Because the system doesn't try to MATCH a large group with large group, INSTEAD it fills solo players and groups of two around the largest group.

The rationale behind this came from solo pvp'ing over a span of two months.

Labradoraki's Avatar


Labradoraki
11.18.2012 , 12:24 PM | #923
http://gyazo.com/a8f1728d7973ff2f00eeb0f59ab711cb.png
and i only have recruit gear....and im a bloody lighting sorcerer...

Not sure if premade or just SUCK

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.18.2012 , 02:25 PM | #924
Quote: Originally Posted by Labradoraki View Post
http://gyazo.com/a8f1728d7973ff2f00eeb0f59ab711cb.png
and i only have recruit gear....and im a bloody lighting sorcerer...

Not sure if premade or just SUCK
Looks like you ran into one of the "you have all been randomly selected" to be on this team and you got stuck on a team with no DPS. No DPS means you can't keep up with the other teams heals which means you lose. I wasn't there so I don't know if you fought a premade or not. But that was def 1 sided and a good example of needing a new system to match people.

Arkerus's Avatar


Arkerus
11.18.2012 , 03:42 PM | #925
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
I'm starting to notice on both faction sides of my server that there are pvp'ers you never see on your team. You only ever see them on the opposite (usually winning) team. This indicates to me that what the queue matching system tends to do is match the larger groups to fight a teams consisting of solos. You would think it would want to match with equal sized groups but that doesn't seem to be the case.

So the larger your group the chances of playing teams consisting of solo pvp'ers in increases. And I think the more experienced guilds have figured this out.

meaning: If two groups of four queue together it will be highly probable that 4 out of 5 of their matches will be against solos (let the pugstomping begin). Because the system doesn't try to MATCH a large group with large group, INSTEAD it fills solo players and groups of two around the largest group.

The rationale behind this came from solo pvp'ing over a span of two months.
I've noticed that too. The system algorithm often places groups together and fills the opposite team with pugs. Now, I'm going to make the broad assumption this happens because its easy to do. Finish team A, now finish B. n
Launch WZ.

It will change eventually. It didn't last in wow and it won't last here.
Hooning in the rex : http://youtu.be/xtXUM6yPMCY

KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
11.18.2012 , 04:52 PM | #926
This is an ancient problem dating back to games much older than SWTOR.

Warzones/battlegrounds/arenas/whatever the hell you want to call them, will always be massively unbalanced as long as you put PUGs vs. premades. There's no way around that. The only reason games like DAOC got away with it is because there was no instanced PvP. Instead there was one massive open world where the sky was the limit. Those days are long gone and I doubt they'll ever be coming back. The only viable solution is to implement two different types of non-ranked queues, solo and premade. That way PUGs will always queue vs. PUGs(or at least pug-ish, at least you won't be able to reliably get in the same WZ with your guildees) and premades vs. premades. The only other option would be to remove premades from non-ranked entirely, which wouldn't go over very well with the community(though it would do wonders for ranked PvP). Until developers like EABioware(really just EA, Bioware no longer really exists), Blizzard, and arenanet get that through their thick, greedy, incompetent skulls, instanced PvP will always be less than enjoyable for the solo gamer. You'll hear lots of BS like "MMOs mean you play with other ppl!" or "Make your own friends and your own premade!", but all that really means is "I want you to PvP the way I want to PvP and you're not allowed to PvP the way you want to unless I say so". This is just a lack of options, which most gamers are not a fan of. Should we be forced into premades just to be competitive in a noncompetitive format or should we have the freedom to choose between solo and premade? Until EABioware answers that question, I refuse to queue with less than 4, one of which is a dedicated healer(and someone with OP stun bubble).
There's no QQing in baseball.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 06:21 PM | #927
Quote: Originally Posted by KiranK View Post
This is an ancient problem dating back to games much older than SWTOR.

Warzones/battlegrounds/arenas/whatever the hell you want to call them, will always be massively unbalanced as long as you put PUGs vs. premades. There's no way around that. The only reason games like DAOC got away with it is because there was no instanced PvP. Instead there was one massive open world where the sky was the limit. Those days are long gone and I doubt they'll ever be coming back. The only viable solution is to implement two different types of non-ranked queues, solo and premade. That way PUGs will always queue vs. PUGs(or at least pug-ish, at least you won't be able to reliably get in the same WZ with your guildees) and premades vs. premades. The only other option would be to remove premades from non-ranked entirely, which wouldn't go over very well with the community(though it would do wonders for ranked PvP). Until developers like EABioware(really just EA, Bioware no longer really exists), Blizzard, and arenanet get that through their thick, greedy, incompetent skulls, instanced PvP will always be less than enjoyable for the solo gamer. You'll hear lots of BS like "MMOs mean you play with other ppl!" or "Make your own friends and your own premade!", but all that really means is "I want you to PvP the way I want to PvP and you're not allowed to PvP the way you want to unless I say so". This is just a lack of options, which most gamers are not a fan of. Should we be forced into premades just to be competitive in a noncompetitive format or should we have the freedom to choose between solo and premade? Until EABioware answers that question, I refuse to queue with less than 4, one of which is a dedicated healer(and someone with OP stun bubble).
Explain why a solo/group split queue is better than a flexible (and improved) matchmaking system that prioritized matching premade to premade, pug to pug, or an equal pug/premade mix, yet remained flexible enough to keep queue times relatively short, and had the ability to fill/backfill from the solo (or 2 man) pool?

Until you can explain how an exclusive system is better than an inclusive system, then there is a fallacy in your "Only one solution" is for lack of a better word... childish. It is essentially "My way or the highway" as you've accused premaders of. And once again, -you- do not have to gear up, group up or L2P to play... but you do have to use all tools and advantages to win.

Muramxx's Avatar


Muramxx
11.18.2012 , 06:35 PM | #928
This is the awesome matchmaking sytem that is in place... not only are they the worse PVP class but let's put 7 of them on the same side and see who wins...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm85/muramx/loss.jpg

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 06:51 PM | #929
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
This is the awesome matchmaking sytem that is in place... not only are they the worse PVP class but let's put 7 of them on the same side and see who wins...

http://i294.photobucket.com/albums/mm85/muramx/loss.jpg
So we needed a better one (as I, Raika, and others have said).

KiranK's Avatar


KiranK
11.18.2012 , 07:11 PM | #930
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Explain why a solo/group split queue is better than a flexible (and improved) matchmaking system that prioritized matching premade to premade, pug to pug, or an equal pug/premade mix, yet remained flexible enough to keep queue times relatively short, and had the ability to fill/backfill from the solo (or 2 man) pool?
Maybe because it never works? Name a game that has a system like that implemented correctly. And don't give me that "match making will become more flexible if a comparable group isn't found". That's the same thing as just mashing together PUGs and premades under a new guise.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Until you can explain how an exclusive system is better than an inclusive system, then there is a fallacy in your "Only one solution" is for lack of a better word... childish. It is essentially "My way or the highway" as you've accused premaders of. And once again, -you- do not have to gear up, group up or L2P to play... but you do have to use all tools and advantages to win.
I just did, because inclusive systems all fail. In the exclusive system you can't end up as PUG vs. premade because its impossible. On the inclusive system you can if there aren't enough premades on. It's like we should feel sorry for the premade teams just because not everyone wants to play premade at every hour of the day. I don't want to end up against a premade when I'm solo just because it's not prime premade hour. There will almost always be soloers to play with, so there's no problem there. Premades are another issue and your inclusive system leaves a huge gap. It caters way too much towards the premades. The exclusive system only caters to fairness. Creating a level playing field should always take priority, not mindless queue popping.
There's no QQing in baseball.