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Updated Tanking Spreadsheet (Universal)

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Updated Tanking Spreadsheet (Universal)

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
10.28.2012 , 12:22 PM | #1
For the real min/maxers, here's an updated version of the original LagunaD sheet with Effective Health. It's one of few ways to compare tank classes with some actual uniformity. I streamlined it for ease of use and updated class stats for 1.4. I think I have all the stats correct for PT/Sin tanks. If anyone can confirm them, that'd be awesome. Obviously, feel free to report any other issues as well.

The sheet has the standard LagunaD Squish, SigmaSquish and Spikiness metrics, as well as Effective Health calculation to compare endurance stacking somewhat. I also added a roll-by-roll calculation of Total Mitigation (a restatement of Squishiness really).

File > Copy to make your own if you find it useful.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...nhteGt0LXhXU0E

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.29.2012 , 12:23 AM | #2
The problem with LagunaD's spreadsheet (and others like it) is two fold. First, they fail to take into account multiple mitigation types, so they give you a picture of survivability that is somewhat divorced from the actual content. More importantly, they fail to take into account alternative survivability mechanics such as self-heals. This is particularly onerous in TOR, since it dramatically inflates the apparent survivability of Vanguards/PowerTechs and dramatically deflates apparent survivability of Shadows/Assassins.

If all you want to do is optimize the balance of your defensive stats, then LagunaD's spreadsheet is pretty much the best thing out there. It's good to see it updated. :-) However, if you want to maximize your *survivability*, considering all forms of mitigation and all damage types, then spreadsheets like this can actually result in sub-optimal itemization for certain classes (most notably shadows/assassins).
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
10.29.2012 , 12:24 PM | #3
While I understand your point, I think you're seriously overestimating its significance. I agree that it does not account for all mitigation. It does not account for differences in elemental/internal resistances (3-4% variances) which are not significant enough to be considered for most fights (Jarg is a good exception). It also does not account for self heals or Sonic Barrier. Sonic Barrier = 75-100 HPS (depending on normal/hybrid spec) which picks up maybe 8% of damage taken during normal-high damage boss phases.

The best numbers I can find for assassins points to less than 200 HPS including everything (overcharg saber etc). So call it 150-180 depending on endurance stacking. Even if you assume that assassins mitigate roughly equal damage (compared to a hybrid jugg I have my doubts), that's about 13% of their damage taken. I mitigate ~75% of ranged/melee damage (from the spreadsheet and logs).

As a matter of total mitigation that takes me to ~77% and you to ~78% and I'm not factoring in Endure Pain which is up to 90 HPS but probably more like 40 since it's used more as an emergency mini-CD. If you wanted to compare to a Powertech, obviously it's more of an issue, but if they pop Kolto Overload fairly regularly they're pushing 50-70 HPS.

So the point is that Assassin magical self heals are just not all that special. The differences between classes are not what you seem to think. This makes the spreadsheet a highly valid method of comparing tanks even across classes.

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
10.29.2012 , 12:26 PM | #4
For those that begin using this sheet, I'd really appreciate it if you share your sheet (and progression) as well for general comparisons.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.29.2012 , 06:10 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
While I understand your point, I think you're seriously overestimating its significance. I agree that it does not account for all mitigation. It does not account for differences in elemental/internal resistances (3-4% variances) which are not significant enough to be considered for most fights (Jarg is a good exception). It also does not account for self heals or Sonic Barrier. Sonic Barrier = 75-100 HPS (depending on normal/hybrid spec) which picks up maybe 8% of damage taken during normal-high damage boss phases.
Sonic/Blade Barrier is responsible for 95 HPS in Defense/Immortal spec, and a full 142 HPS in hybrid spec.

As for internal/elemental damage, consider the following: if I set my internal/elemental resistance to 9% (the same as a Vanguard/PowerTech), my survivability drops by 1.81% on current content. That doesn't sound like a lot, but it actually turns out to be equivalent to almost 91 points of defense rating! (source) Again, not something you want to just ignore. 28.2% of damage in current content bypasses defensive stats. LagunaD's spreadsheet says nothing about that damage, and thus represents a very incomplete picture of survivability in general.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
The best numbers I can find for assassins points to less than 200 HPS including everything (overcharg saber etc). So call it 150-180 depending on endurance stacking. Even if you assume that assassins mitigate roughly equal damage (compared to a hybrid jugg I have my doubts), that's about 13% of their damage taken. I mitigate ~75% of ranged/melee damage (from the spreadsheet and logs).
You can't count Overcharge Saber / Battle Readiness as part of the steady-state self-heal. It's a cooldown, and therefore falls under a different class of theory-crafting. If we filter down to just Telekinetic Throw / Force Lightning and Combat Technique / Dark Charge, we arrive at a base self-heal value of 135 HPS, or 155 HPS with proc heal relic (which is what I use on my shadow).

This is not an insignificant component of my survivability. In fact, if I remove my self-heal entirely, my survivability drops by 11.4% ! That's huge. Not something you can just ignore. And given that endurance actually has a very significant effect on the value of the self-heal (and thus survivability), it is actively wrong for shadows/assassins to make gearing decisions based solely on the three defensive stats weighted against armor.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
As a matter of total mitigation that takes me to ~77% and you to ~78% and I'm not factoring in Endure Pain which is up to 90 HPS but probably more like 40 since it's used more as an emergency mini-CD. If you wanted to compare to a Powertech, obviously it's more of an issue, but if they pop Kolto Overload fairly regularly they're pushing 50-70 HPS.
You cannot naively count cooldowns into steady-state mitigation, since they get popped in response to burst phases, not as an active part of the rotation. However, even if you did count Kolto Overload, you're only talking about a *very* small self-heal. 15% of max HP over 10 seconds, once every 3 minutes. That's just 21.6 HPS if it is used on cooldown. Quite paltry.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
So the point is that Assassin magical self heals are just not all that special. The differences between classes are not what you seem to think. This makes the spreadsheet a highly valid method of comparing tanks even across classes.
I use the following spreadsheet: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1679797/SWT...0Stats.numbers When restricted to current content, it shows all three tanks balanced to within ~1% (when equally geared), it predicts requisite HPS to within <5% (judged by combat logs), and it considers all four attack/damage combinations. I would consider its results to be much more comprehensive and accurate than LagunaD's for the purposes of comparing tanks head-to-head. If all you want is to determine the relative value of *just* your defensive stats, then LagunaD's spreadsheet is excellent.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
10.30.2012 , 01:11 PM | #6
Sonic barrier is max of around 110 hps in hybrid (1000/9s). You're forgetting also that 10% of your internal resistance comes from the Inquis/Consular buff which everyone would have in nearly any pve content. I would also include mitigation stats in the calculation of survivability rather than simply taking your hps divided by damage taken. Either way the point isn't that your hps are insignificant mitigation, it's that the differences between the hps across the tanks classes are relatively insignificant, especially for hybrid juggs vs assassins.

The percent of mitigation (and therefore survivability) of hps varies depending on how much damage you are taking as well whereas mitigation stats are relatively constant percentages except when force/tech attacks increase dramatically which is typically rare. So your hps might be slightly better on the Dread Council with the DoTs but that 91 points of defense would be better on Operator or Terror as you are taking nearly twice as much damage and hps don't scale with damage unlike pure mitigation.

Also I can absolutely count mini CDs as active mitigation if they're the sort of thing that is used consistently more than once per fight. Only true emergency CDs should not be counted.

All of this is not to say that this spreadsheet is a perfect comparison of tanks but it's a damn fine tool to use as long as you keep in mind these class mechanics. To pretend that it's useless for comparing is truly naive.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.30.2012 , 05:57 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
Sonic barrier is max of around 110 hps in hybrid (1000/9s). You're forgetting also that 10% of your internal resistance comes from the Inquis/Consular buff which everyone would have in nearly any pve content. I would also include mitigation stats in the calculation of survivability rather than simply taking your hps divided by damage taken. Either way the point isn't that your hps are insignificant mitigation, it's that the differences between the hps across the tanks classes are relatively insignificant, especially for hybrid juggs vs assassins.
The value of Sonic/Blade Barrier is computed as the following function:

((7085 * 0.05) + (power * 0.17 + force-power * 0.17 + strength * 1.11 * 0.14) * 1.05) * 1.2

For a pure defense/immortal guardian/juggernaut in augmented Campaign gear, that gives me a value of 1142.76. That's 95.2304 HPS. If I drop the cooldown to 9 seconds, the HPS goes up to 126.9738.

That's a pretty wide gap from the 160 HPS that a shadow/assassin can reach, and the 0 HPS that a vanguard/powertech will achieve.

Oh, and I'm not forgetting that 10% of resistance is from the Consular/Inquisitor buff. Something is apparently weird with how Ask Mr Robot computes resistance, since it claimed to be including all the buffs when apparently it wasn't. I suspect the actual resistance for a vanguard/powertech is 19%, but I need to verify.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
The percent of mitigation (and therefore survivability) of hps varies depending on how much damage you are taking as well whereas mitigation stats are relatively constant percentages except when force/tech attacks increase dramatically which is typically rare. So your hps might be slightly better on the Dread Council with the DoTs but that 91 points of defense would be better on Operator or Terror as you are taking nearly twice as much damage and hps don't scale with damage unlike pure mitigation.
Yes, I consider the mean survivability contribution from HPS. On current content, all bosses hit for nearly the same amount (to within 10%), so the mean is actually going to be fairly accurate. I have extremely precise data on pre-mitigation DPS for all bosses in the game on their hardest modes, so I am able to make such calculations.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
Also I can absolutely count mini CDs as active mitigation if they're the sort of thing that is used consistently more than once per fight. Only true emergency CDs should not be counted.
If they're being used in a steady-state, predictable rotation, then yes (e.g. Dark/Kinetic Ward). If they're not being used in rotation, then no, you cannot count them. If it's not in rotation, then it is a situational ability used in response to something else that happened in the fight. You can't consider situationals in a smoothed statistical model.

Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
All of this is not to say that this spreadsheet is a perfect comparison of tanks but it's a damn fine tool to use as long as you keep in mind these class mechanics. To pretend that it's useless for comparing is truly naive.
It's fine for comparing tanks if you want a severely incomplete picture of relative tank survivability.

The reason I get so up-in-arms over things like this is it is precisely this sort of spreadsheet that led to the (still widely-held) belief that vanguards/powertechs are the only tanks worth having, and shadows/assassins are severely under-powered. People have a tendency to underestimate the value of a tank's self-heal (case in point: your earlier post). Spreadsheets like this encourage such underestimation since they fail to take the self-heal into account at all.

Comparing tanks by using this spreadsheet is simply ignoring major components of steady-state tank survivability. It would be like comparing the DPS of a Maurader to that of an Arsenal Mercenary without counting the damage from Unload. It's silly, and it doesn't really give you an informed answer.

This spreadsheet is very good for weighing defensive stats and optimizing them against each-other. No question about that. It's just an extremely poor tool for performing tank balance comparisons.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Zimmman's Avatar


Zimmman
11.14.2012 , 09:16 AM | #8
Keyboardninja,

Sounds like you have a lot of info around tanking. I have been missing a good detailed BiS gearing info. Do you have a link you can post to were you found some of your info or where there is good discution on end game gearing.

Also, do you know a better sheet that can be used to help optimis gearing.

Thank for the info and the sonic barrior calc, have been looking for that from day one but have given up in the past month when EC was on farm for 3 months...

Zman

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
11.17.2012 , 10:27 PM | #9
I think he covered that in the next to last sentence if you read the post. Also take the sonic barrier calculation as you will, but I've never seen it break 1k in logs.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.18.2012 , 03:25 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by FillionFan View Post
I think he covered that in the next to last sentence if you read the post. Also take the sonic barrier calculation as you will, but I've never seen it break 1k in logs.
If you have a more authoritative calculation for Sonic/Blade Barrier absorption, I'm all ears. Mine comes straight from the Effect Details paired with the healing formulae.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)