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8man vs 16man NiM EC Discussion


Aerro's Avatar


Aerro
11.18.2012 , 02:34 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaqen View Post

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.
Speak for yourself. Our roster is nearly the same as before when we pulled out World Firsts. Granted, this time around we don't have the luxury of raiding on a weekend- one can still say that 16man is far more difficult than 8man. We are not a B team at all or close to it. Seeing guilds clear all the content in 8man while we're still putting in attempts on tanks just shows that 8man is definitely easier. Again, this is coming from a guild that had top progression in TFB. I am not saying 8man is extremely easy- only that it is undertuned. If you're only putting in 2-3 attempts per fight in order to do it on its hardest difficult- its undertuned.
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One of the leading Mercenaries in a World Progression Guild.

Donalj's Avatar


Donalj
11.18.2012 , 02:35 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by Chaqen View Post
You ever take the time to think that the people in those 8 man raids played better as a raid group then your 16 man raid? It has already been proven that the dps checks in 16 man raids are lower then 8 man, i imagine the hps that are needed on a clean run (if alot of people taking extra damage then yes you will need more heals on 16 man) are less then what is needed on 8 man.

There use to be quite a few good 16 man guilds out there, but the majority of them left the game due to the easiness of it. I imagine that a great amount of what is left of 16 man guild's rosters are players that would most likely be on a B team, and not a progression.
Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.
Donal - Xarea - Pasta - Wotsit - Vebbeg - Potential - Greengiant
Dólan - Hurrimarobot

Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.18.2012 , 03:22 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Aerro View Post
Speak for yourself. Our roster is nearly the same as before when we pulled out World Firsts. Granted, this time around we don't have the luxury of raiding on a weekend- one can still say that 16man is far more difficult than 8man. We are not a B team at all or close to it. Seeing guilds clear all the content in 8man while we're still putting in attempts on tanks just shows that 8man is definitely easier. Again, this is coming from a guild that had top progression in TFB. I am not saying 8man is extremely easy- only that it is undertuned. If you're only putting in 2-3 attempts per fight in order to do it on its hardest difficult- its undertuned.
The thing is the fights are not radically different, and the new mechanics are not OMGWTF hard but do require every single member of the raid to be on point, and for the overall raid be clean with the kill. I will admit from a mathematical/statistical point of view that you're more likely to get someone messing something up when you increase the number of people in the raid, but does it really make the content harder, does it mean there need to be special awards and such for people doing 16 man? They already have lower the dps check on the fights on 16 man, to allow people to loose a bit of their uptime to adjust to more movement in the fights, what else do you want them to do?

On a sidenote, i dont mean to offend anyone with my posts, but every new raid we get these same damn threads about 16 man being so much harder then 8 man, and how they should be given special treatment because of it. Also if you want to look at how many 8 man guilds that are attempting NIM EC to 16 man guilds, i am sure you will find the success rate to be about right (based on the logic that more people doing something, more likely someone will do it right).

Quote: Originally Posted by Donalj View Post
Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.
Most 8 man guilds dont have 16 "A" players, and dont want to go through the trouble of finding them in this game where it is hard enough to find 8 decent players to fill out a raid. To be honest i almost joined a 16 man guild a few weeks ago, but i decided not to, because i would've ended up switching roles, and i didnt like the idea of me having to trust the ability of 15 other players in a game that is very casual.

Lareky's Avatar


Lareky
11.18.2012 , 03:35 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Donalj View Post
Say whatever you want, but i want to see players that can clear 8 man with relative ease go into 16 man and faceroll through it. The raid team that we have has very good players and have no problem going through 8 man. It's been said by all the 16 man groups: 8 man is too easy and it can be seen in every instance.
Has it ever occured to you, that some ppl have been playing together since release or even longer and they have no desire to do 16 man ops? ... Seriously i just can't understand where is this elitism coming from. You all are acting like "BUT YOU ONLY KILLED XYZ BOSS ON 8M, YOU MUST BE COMPLETE NOOBS, 16M IS WHAT THE REAL MEN DO!"

To quote a recent movie "No matter how big a splash you make in this world whether you're Corey Feldman, Frankie Muniz, Justin Bieber or a butthurt 16 man guild eventually nobody gives a ****."

Aurojiin's Avatar


Aurojiin
11.18.2012 , 03:46 PM | #25
I agree that 16-man is certainly harder in some cases (although the same can be said of 8-man, perhaps less often).

Honestly, though, I feel a lot more of it is due to player skill than most guilds would realise or accept. It's phenomenally difficult to field 8 good players, and I'm yet to even encounter a raid group with more than two or three exceptional players. I would be genuinely surprised if 16man groups were fielding all above-average raiders.

It's not my intention to be offensive, but the stark reality is that the numbers of players who are genuinely good in this game is a much smaller number than those who think they are good.
Aisev -:- Seer Sage Si'ki -:- Darkness Assassin

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.18.2012 , 03:54 PM | #26
@Chaqen: In order to practice the fights while we're waiting for 16 people to log on we break down into an 8 man group. During the hour and a half of practice time, we killed toth and zorn twice with one group, and two more times with 6 different people swapped in. (Then /stuck on the handler)

Toth and zorn on 8 man hit like flowers, comparatively. Then, on 16 NiM, Firebrand and Stormcaller make Toth and Zorn's damage almost negligible.

My guild has proven that 8 man is much easier.

@Donalj: We run 16 man because we can clear 8 man with ease. No, Messores Republicae would probably not be world first in 8 man, but 8 man is not enough of a challenge.
We do not care about epeen. We just want to be able to chew on something. 16 man NiM EC is the challenge that HARDCORE raiders, the ones that hoped this game would be better than WoW, want and crave so badly! We will stay in 16 man. This is where the top raiders belong. Screw gear, we want challenges.
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

Haargh's Avatar


Haargh
11.18.2012 , 04:23 PM | #27
So basically you are saying that the 16 men are harder?
Tell me, how many times did you actually wiped because of the unavoidable boss skills. Like Enrage and tank instagibs? And how many time did you wiped because of your raid members couldnt press the right keys, and dying in the avoidable abilities?
SWTOR raiding is a joke either way, so bragging about kills and talking down the other difficulty just because you have more than braindead in your 16 men Ops, please.

earsrgood's Avatar


earsrgood
11.18.2012 , 04:34 PM | #28
The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.
2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.
3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)
4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.
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http://www.notgoodenough.eu/

Dragonbgone's Avatar


Dragonbgone
11.18.2012 , 04:51 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by earsrgood View Post
The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.
2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.
3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)
4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.
Not even that but the mechanics hit MUCH harder. The damage is much higher, as well as the difference in mechanics (like 2 shields per side on 16man tanks)
. : Messores Republicae : .
Reapers of the Republic

Krewel's Avatar


Krewel
11.18.2012 , 04:58 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by earsrgood View Post
The 16man fights are harder and the proof is the number of people that clear 8man raids faster.

For whatever reason it is logical to assume that if an 8man group can clear the instance in 1/2 nights but yet we are the only guild to pass the tank boss on 16man (3/4 currently), 16man is harder.

In my mind its a mute discussion and generally accepted that 16mans are more difficult for the following reasons:

1) Raid mechanics at this level are pass/fail therefore twice as much chance to fail in 16man.
2) The organisation is twice as hard due to twice the number of people to co-ordinate.
3) You need to do twice the amount of recruiting/gearing (which is tremendously difficult)
4) Our officers need to give double effort to craft/buy/sell to get us geared and pay for our repairs.
Flawed logic, by the way. There are very few 16 man guilds in the first place. On the Empire side TOFN there is NONE, and it is next to impossible to find a stable 16 man group going for a few weeks without people leaving the game in droves. The average life span of a SWTOR is appx. few weeks, and I'm pretty sure the other servers have similar issues. I'm not arguing that 16 man is easier, I'm sure there are fights in EC NiM which are significantly harder on 16 by default, it's just that your first statement is flawed, to say the least. Seriously, I've been raiding in this game since in January and I've easily seen appx. 50+ good players leave, finding a stable 16 man guild ... well, I can only respect you guys from Friendly Fire, I would say the hardest thing about 16 man op is GETTING 16 people in a raid in the first place.

In my experience, last boss TFB HM is significantly harder on 16, while other bosses are more or less the same, I would even argue that the first one is easier because there is no increase in the amound of debuffs people get from the boss (unlike Zorn & Toth), and the dps requirement for the 3rd boss is significantly lower than on 8. Haven't tried 16 man EC NiM ... yeah, on TOFN that's likely to never happen.