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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

HuaRya's Avatar


HuaRya
11.17.2012 , 10:44 PM | #911
Quote: Originally Posted by Muramxx View Post
The noobstompers don't want that to happen though, takes away their farming even though they keep saying "It sucks and is boring" that's not what they really think, because they are very vocal on saying "L2P" when they know that isn't the issue.
Ain't that the truth. They think because they got into pvp before the server merges and joined with an experience pvp guild that ensures they get carried through matches while collecting the max number of medals they are somehow entitled.

You know you are playing them when they do stuff like overlap heals (something solos would struggle to organize) or protect their snipers from any possible harm. When I play my sniper nobody even bothers to heal let alone have a line of protection so that little miss sniper can get her power shots off.

Wake up Devs, Please allow for Solo's to play with Solo's groups to play with groups.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.17.2012 , 11:42 PM | #912
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
You know you are playing them when they do stuff like overlap heals (something solos would struggle to organize) or protect their snipers from any possible harm. When I play my sniper nobody even bothers to heal let alone have a line of protection so that little miss sniper can get her power shots off.
Take a step back an listen to yourself. You are complaining about people being -good.-

A healers actually healing? *Mind boggled.*

Ranged dps getting a hand? *mind boggled.*

Teamwork is OP! Dev's please nerf it for those of us who can't bother to do that.

-.- I left a few weeks before 1.3. When I came back a little after 1.4 my server had been merged, my guild was gone/dead. Most of the people I knew before had drifted or I couldn't find them. I even rolled on the opposite side of my 3 50's (who were all a mix of champ and BM, so they lost most of their "good" pvp gear.)

She hit 50 about 1-2 weeks before Mk-2 (ya, got screwed on that one too). I met some nice people along the way to 50, got in a half decent guild, and had a good 8-10 people on my friendslist. I did the grind to0, a mix of Solo and Group play. I learned my class, I learned other classes, and I learned what others would do on my team (If I see a certian Smuggler in my guild hanging out near a door, I know he's waiting for me to distract the guard.). I did the grind from recruit to BM, and BM to WH while working a full time job with other commitments and a second game on the side.

The -only- difference between me and you (solo-centric people) is I choose to play the better way, and you choose to cry about it.

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
11.18.2012 , 01:15 AM | #913
Quote: Originally Posted by HuaRya View Post
You know you are playing them when they do stuff like overlap heals (something solos would struggle to organize) or protect their snipers from any possible harm. When I play my sniper nobody even bothers to heal let alone have a line of protection so that little miss sniper can get her power shots off.
What you have just described is the biggest problem with solo queuing. It isn't the premades, its the solo queuers that only look after themselves, their kill count, healing done, and highest damage.

If you solo queue and get stuck on a bad team, is that the other team's fault?

No, it isn't and even if there was a solo vs solo and group vs group queue you, more than likely, will still find yourself in the same situation that you just described.

I solo queue most of the time when I PvP, though I do group up with guildies occasionally, and the endless frustration I feel when I get stuck on a team of bad PuGs is amazing. Especially when I run into a well organized premade and my team mates can't even find it in themselves to call out incs. Which, incidentally, makes the premade look even more organized.

However, I don't blame the other team for it, "I" chose to solo queue knowing what the consequences might be just as I choose to play a gunny commando in PvP.

Once again, it isn't the premades that are ruining PvP it's the solo queuers that do it and refuse to acknowledge that by joining a WZ they have now become part of a team and that they need to shoulder some responsibility to insure that their team is victorious.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.18.2012 , 01:42 AM | #914
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
As I said before, -we- do not know why PvP is suffering. It could be from the Gear gap, the time to grind, premade vs. PuG, bad players, a failure to understand MMO pvp, lack of warzones, lack of class balance, or maybe the great Daddy in the Sky just wants to smite Swtor. The proposed split queue system only addresses one possible issue, and it causes as much if not more harm then good.

As for why ranked is dead/dying, I'd say in my opinion, it's the entry level requirement to Play it. Something I find people have trouble getting through their skulls is the difference between the requirements to Play, and the requirements to Win.

Non-ranked has low entry requirements: Hit 50, Queue up.
Non-Ranked has a slightly higher requirement to win (most of the time): Hit 50, Find 1-3 friends, gear up to atleast BM, try and get a decent team composition.

Yet ranked (the dead queue) is different because...

Ranked entry requirement: Hit 50, Find exactly 7 other people.
Ranked requirement to win (most of the time): Hit 50, find 7 other people, gear up to mostly WH, get a decent team composition.
No one said that Pug vs Premade were the only problems but if you examine split queues and how they would affect other issues, you'd notice the following things:

1. Gear gap would still exist but would be less of an issue because (hopefully) well-geared people would be distributed evenly.
2. Time to grind comes directly from gear gap. The better your gear, the faster you get more gear. No.1 would help this.
3. Premades vs PuGs. Hopefully it would solve this problem entirely.
4. Bad Players. Just like good ones (hopefully) they would be distributed relatively evenly and wouldn't hinder just 1 team.
5. Failure to understand MMO PvP. I think it's the same as "bad players" See No.4.
6. Lack of warzones. Most people don't care which warzone they play as long as they're having fun.
7. Class imbalance. This happens anyway everywhere.
8. Great Daddy in the Sky wants to smite SWTOR. If by that you mean EA, I'm pretty sure they are not deliberately sabotaging their own game. It's just SWTOR is becoming a low-priority game for them because it doesn't bring the most profit. Why? Because people don't stick around and leave (partly) due to a very bad PvP system.

So I never said that split queues were ideal. They are far from ideal. However, it's better than to just sit back, debate on the forums and slowly watch PvP die in this game. I wonder how all those pugstomping premades will feel when they have successfully driven everyone away and they're left to rule one big desert.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Masarko's Avatar


Masarko
11.18.2012 , 01:53 AM | #915
So like 90% of the time i solo que, as dps I end up having to stealth guard nodes,because:

1 - There WAS a recruit Sorc spamhealing himself for medals
2 - Incompetent tank Juggy who chases people

Also you dont know if the guarder can even write.
"why didnt you call?" "I was stunned"

YEH S0L0 QU3 FTW PLZPREMADES STACHP BEIGN NAPS END G0 R4NK3D FFS

Stop complaining, there has always been premades and there will always be

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 02:36 AM | #916
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
No one said that Pug vs Premade were the only problems but if you examine split queues and how they would affect other issues, you'd notice the following things:

1. Gear gap would still exist but would be less of an issue because (hopefully) well-geared people would be distributed evenly.
2. Time to grind comes directly from gear gap. The better your gear, the faster you get more gear. No.1 would help this.
3. Premades vs PuGs. Hopefully it would solve this problem entirely.
4. Bad Players. Just like good ones (hopefully) they would be distributed relatively evenly and wouldn't hinder just 1 team.
5. Failure to understand MMO PvP. I think it's the same as "bad players" See No.4.
6. Lack of warzones. Most people don't care which warzone they play as long as they're having fun.
7. Class imbalance. This happens anyway everywhere.
8. Great Daddy in the Sky wants to smite SWTOR. If by that you mean EA, I'm pretty sure they are not deliberately sabotaging their own game. It's just SWTOR is becoming a low-priority game for them because it doesn't bring the most profit. Why? Because people don't stick around and leave (partly) due to a very bad PvP system.

So I never said that split queues were ideal. They are far from ideal. However, it's better than to just sit back, debate on the forums and slowly watch PvP die in this game. I wonder how all those pugstomping premades will feel when they have successfully driven everyone away and they're left to rule one big desert.
1. If there was one faction, this would be valid. However, gear gap won't distribute if the 4-5 well geared people are on imp or pub side. It still isn't solving the direct issue, nor will it solve people blaming gear for losing.

2. Problem is it still doesn't solve the direct issue, it just sorta hopes for the best.

3. Yes... as long as there isn't a way to exploit the queue system. Then the complain will move into "Why don't we have some sort of skill ranking to even out teams?"

4. See both example one, and no matter what, bad players will always complain.

5. Actually refered to people who don't understand MMO-PvP (specifically progression based) isn't fair on the encounter level, it's more about choices you've made up to the encounter.

6. If the lack of Warzones is a problem effecting PvP interest, then split queue's did nothing to help it, which is exactly as I'm arguing. We don't know the exact reasons pvp is suffering.

7. See 6. If that's the real reason PvP is suffering then we've wasted dev time on a system that won't help the problem, and could hurt more.

8. Was actually a reference to the mythical being most call "God."

Yes, your haven't said your system is ideal. Yet two options have been tossed around (3 if you count doing nothing). One is a split queue system, the other is a proper matchmaking system. I've tried to stress/explain the difference between inclusive and exclusive.

Option one is exclusive, hard, firm, unbending. Not enough Premades, no match. Not enough PuG's, no match. Smaller pools, more likely-hood of running into the same teams... etc... and it creates one queue with less skill/prep required, and one with a higher skill/prep required (yet same rewards.)

Option two is inclusive, compromising, fluid. Tries to match premade to premade only, pug to pug, but mixes them as needed. Fills pug's into 2-3 man groups, backfills if premades lose a player (d/c happens). Has one queue with an average level of skill/prep required, so no one can ***** about those less skilled getting same rewards etc...

TonyDragonflame's Avatar


TonyDragonflame
11.18.2012 , 03:08 AM | #917
Quote: Originally Posted by Masarko View Post
Stop complaining, there has always been premades and there will always be
There is nothing eternal in this world, dude
May the Force be with you!
Guardian vr 100 | Sentinel vr 93 | Scoundrel vr 91 | Vanguard vr 90 | Shadow v 85 | Guns v 75
Manhunter 140+k killed imps | TRE | ToFN

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.18.2012 , 03:38 AM | #918
Quote: Originally Posted by TonyDragonflame View Post
There is nothing eternal in this world, dude
No, but working systems (good or bad) stick around for awhile. Ya know... Democracy, Tyranny, Post Office, Speed dating... etc...

SajPl's Avatar


SajPl
11.18.2012 , 07:56 AM | #919
Quote: Originally Posted by Masarko View Post
So like 90% of the time i solo que, as dps I end up having to stealth guard nodes,because:

1 - There WAS a recruit Sorc spamhealing himself for medals
2 - Incompetent tank Juggy who chases people

Also you dont know if the guarder can even write.
"why didnt you call?" "I was stunned"

YEH S0L0 QU3 FTW PLZPREMADES STACHP BEIGN NAPS END G0 R4NK3D FFS

Stop complaining, there has always been premades and there will always be
If you que solo like 90% people then 50% of the time you have a premade on your team. If you fail to win with a premade maby its time to rethink your skills? I mean your argument is basically this : "stupid guard didnt call incs - its a premade fault he was stupid!".

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.18.2012 , 10:44 AM | #920
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Option one is exclusive, hard, firm, unbending. Not enough Premades, no match. Not enough PuG's, no match. Smaller pools, more likely-hood of running into the same teams... etc... and it creates one queue with less skill/prep required, and one with a higher skill/prep required (yet same rewards.)

Option two is inclusive, compromising, fluid. Tries to match premade to premade only, pug to pug, but mixes them as needed. Fills pug's into 2-3 man groups, backfills if premades lose a player (d/c happens). Has one queue with an average level of skill/prep required, so no one can ***** about those less skilled getting same rewards etc...
And just how long do you think it will take to develop, refine, test and implement option two? Maybe by patch 2.8.3 we'll have the super-balanced, super-fun match making system that everyone seems to want? Awesome! But how many players will be around by then let me ask?

Option two is a great idea...

...on paper because it is unrealistic at the present. It will take an insane amount of money and time to develop and implement. By which time pretty much all PuGs, F2P and casual subbers will have already left the game. We won't be needing a match making system by then because there won't be people around to PvP. We really should poll the new/returning players how much fun they have in PvP and if they plan to stick around or even do the unthinkable and sub.

Then what will all the war hero premades that laugh hysterically with frothing mouths and madly flashing eyes and feel a sudden rush of adulation and exultation for successfully killing someone who had 6 or 7k less HP anyway in two shots do when they suddenly run out of PuGs, casuals and F2P to slaughter? Some will stay and play against other premades in rateds, most will leave because they don't like even competition. That will be the sad but not surprising end of SWTOR PVP.

So, we can sit back, debate all day about a perfect match making system whose release will coincide with Mitt Romney's 2016 presidential inauguration, grab some popcorn and watch SWTOR PVP wither and die. Because I can guarantee you that system we want is so complex that it's impossible to implement in the near future.

The developers need to do something RIGHT NOW and ASAP if they are serious about making new and returning players actually want to play pvp. I see absolutely no reason why we couldn't try split queues for a short time. Or even allow people to optionally turn premades off (hint hint at a certain game), so whoever wants to play against premades while solo queuing (guess how many will) will be allowed to do so. It doesn't have to be permanent, just to see if it would alleviate some of the burden that is already weighing down new people so much.

You say if a man is in critical condition and you administer the wrong procedure he could die? True. The difference is: if you administer the wrong treatment he COULD die. If you don't do anything he WILL die. (And the kind of match making we all want is tantamount to doing nothing because it is unfathomably far in the future.)

MMOs are always developing and evolving. I'm sure all the reasonable premaders (who want more than fast and easy comms and kills) and solo players would be interested in a short experiment. (We could also try experimenting with gear and a Recruit bracket.) It's just those abovementioned premades that complain who suddenly feel naked when they enter a warzone, where they cant kill everyone in 3 GCDs.
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?