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Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Premades are ruining non-ranked warzones

CarverX's Avatar


CarverX
11.17.2012 , 01:29 PM | #871
Much worse now after F2P. Lots of noobs with no clue how to play against **** 40's premades=absolutely no fun. I'm an altaholic and I like my fun wzs so Bioware you need to kill grouping and split the pack at 35+ already. If you want to group go to ranked that's why it is there after you all begged for it and kept them from addressing other more pressing issues. Enough already the situation is just dumb.
The Shadowlands

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.17.2012 , 01:37 PM | #872
foxmob i said 16 premadeRs. Not 16 premades. That was my point that not all are 4 people. lets say 3 groups of 4 q then 1 group of 3 then another group of 3. What happens here? You wait even longer. I'm not saying they never pop I am saying it is longer than you think.

Even a simple matchmaking system would help most pugs and most premades that want good fights. This is better than q sep.

Also, even if you disagree with my point above please be realistic. They are not going to do q sep no matter how much you want it.

If many of us agree on a simple matchmaking system they might do something about it. There is a difference between what you want and what you can realistically expect. If you only try for what you want you will get neither.

CommanderKeeva's Avatar


CommanderKeeva
11.17.2012 , 01:44 PM | #873
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
This reminds me of those religious arguments. "Come on, try God for a little. What can it hurt?"

Could the same argument not be made for matchmaking? Come on, let's just try this (better idea) for a few weeks, see how it goes?
Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

Queue separation is very simple. It only measures one factor, whether someone presses the "Solo" or "Group" button. It is something that we can implement right now (or in the very near future)! It is not nearly as complex as match making. It is (and should be) a reasonable interim solution but are interim solutions not preferable to losing people?

And make no mistake this game is leaking subs like a rusty barrel leaks oil. I have talked to about two dozen people who returned to the game and jumped back into lvl50 PvP with their characters. Guess what, most of them are not having fun for the reasons we listed in over 85 pages. They came, played, lost, lost. lost, lost and lost again and left. Bang. So much for their PvP experience. First impressions are extremely important when judging something and right now PvP first impression is about as bad as they can get.

So yeah I'd love to see matchmaking implemented in the long run. But I'd also love to see more people actually like PvP and stick around RIGHT NOW. Queue separation is really simple and I see absolutely no reason why couldn't give it a go.

An analogy: If someone suffers a life-threating injury he can't wait until he can be taken into the nearest hospital, where he can get proper treatment, he'll die before he gets there. In a critical state, that man needs a blood transfusion to actually survive the trip to the hospital. PvP in this game is also in a critical state and needs a serious blood transfusion or it will die. Simple as that. No new people, old ones get bored, everyone leaves, everyone loses.
We need to make people stick around and queue separation is the right now the only thing that could achieve that.

too TL;DR?
BEING A GOOD SOLDIER COMES DOWN TO ONE THING, ONE SINGLE QUESTION:
WHAT ARE YOU PREPARED TO SACRIFICE?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.17.2012 , 01:56 PM | #874
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Actually it's easier for someone to just hit the solo queue button and get in a pvp match than trying to find people to form a group. Soo...just thought I would debunk another excuse really fast before my morning jog.

I assume you'll type "MMO!!!" which doesn't have the word group in it. Also CoD has a solo queue playlist and that is multiplayer. It's not a foreign concept.
<.< Well since you didn't bother to tell me which part you were "debunking" I really have no idea what you're refering to, other then your usual babble.

Fact: Takes more effort to field 2 people than 1. It also takes more effort to field 4 people than 1.
Fact: Effort Influences rewards.
Fact: The less effort you give, the less you should be rewarded.

Seems pretty simple?

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.17.2012 , 02:16 PM | #875
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

....

too TL;DR?
The problem (atleast I have) comes down to we do not know what is causing pvp to "dry up." In all honesty, none of us (players) have measurable statistics, opinion polls, or any form of indepth knowledge of the games inner workings. All we can do is use speculation, deduction, and logical reasoning.

PvP may be suffering from Premades vs. PuG's.
PvP may be suffering from the time it takes to Grind.
PvP may be suffering because it's too complex (not likely, but possible.)
PvP may be suffering because a gear gap exist.
PvP may be suffering from general population decline.
PvP may be suffering cause it's just plain boring.
PvP may be suffering from class imbalance.
PvP may be suffering because people are a bunch of cry babies.

The list could go on and on, and without any measurable data or poll (a forum poll won't do it, we either need an in-game poll or even the data some companies collected when you quit) we have no idea what's wrong with it. To tie into you ancedote about the man on his way to the hospital, it's like the EMT is just some random guy you pulled off the street and told "Keep this guy alive!" Maybe the patient does need a blood transfusion, or just a bandage, a glass of water, cpr, a miracle... The guy in the ambulance can only guess what is needed. Problem is, like any medical procedure, if he does the wrong thing it's just as likely to kill the patient as save him.

Of course, the next thing I say is speculation too but in my opinion: Bioware can not afford to make any more mistakes or wild guesses. Look at the general feeling of incompitence their players have for their dev team. We've seen patch after patch where some random change makes no sense, or they break something, or they make something worse (on purpose it seems). They can not afford to "just see how it goes" when the idea could be as harmful as it is helpful.

Veniras's Avatar


Veniras
11.17.2012 , 02:37 PM | #876
Quote: Originally Posted by Asunasan View Post
I think they do have or at least had a premade matchmaking system.
Im pretty sure it does. Things I have noticed it seems to do

- faction vs faction is preferred to same-faction matches

- premades vs premades before premades vs pugs. But if one faction is premading a lot more than the other, they will meet pugs from the other faction before premades from own faction)

SajPl's Avatar


SajPl
11.17.2012 , 02:40 PM | #877
Quote: Originally Posted by CarverX View Post
Much worse now after F2P. Lots of noobs with no clue how to play against **** 40's premades=absolutely no fun. I'm an altaholic and I like my fun wzs so Bioware you need to kill grouping and split the pack at 35+ already. If you want to group go to ranked that's why it is there after you all begged for it and kept them from addressing other more pressing issues. Enough already the situation is just dumb.
QQ I want to get my highiest tier pve gear without having to do ops. This is an mmo go play a single player game. I do solo quing or with 1 other person so are 2 people a premade? I solo que and a good pug team will beat a premade or simply it comes down to a player quality that decides about the win. Bad pug teams will loose against good pug teams and nothing will change for qqers. Next thing they will want an "im bad at pvp bracket".

DarthRaika's Avatar


DarthRaika
11.17.2012 , 02:43 PM | #878
Doom I see what you are saying but some things are more obvious than others. In the real world you almost never fully know what your client wants but you make best guesses and go with it.

Gear gap is an issue for sure. However, gear gap is compouned by hardcore premades that play a lot since by their very nature they will have top end gear. So matchmaking would help this issue.

Many many many pugs complain all the time. This isn't some hard statistic but come on we play the same game. You know this is the case lol. Matchmaking would help this since the most often heard pvp complaints appear to be related to premades and gear.

In mmos there are more casuals that super hardcores and also mmo players are often not the most social of us humans lol. This is also pretty obvious. Matchmaking helps this since they don't have to be hardcore or social.

Also, many long term pvprs say the softcap to skill is pretty low in this game. There is still a way to show you are better since I said softcap (good example is my vguard that is extremely easy, even in a pug setting, to play to the softcap but there is a reason why my Assault vguard usually has more protection than tank spec'd ones while still having highest dmg and kbs) but with a low softcap it means that premades with gear can be major threats even if they are bad players. Matchmaking would help this since it would take this advantage away.

Composition is a huge factor in this game. I like this, however when it is pug v proper composition premade then ouch. I know you can say pugs will have different compositions but really composition mainly matters in a premade setting where there is good commmunication. Matchmaking would help this.

This is a 2 faction game and we all know the problems with this. On different servers at different times of the day one side will have more premades than the other. A matchmaking system with diff faction teams when necessary would help this.

Also, all of us longterm mmo'rs know the ragequit. All of us have done it at least once at some point if we have played long enough. Loss after loss after loss can cause this and they may or may not come back.

All I want soon is a SIMPLE matchmaking system. It should not be that hard.

Although I did say last month that if they didn't do this before many ftp's hit 50 (or came back on their 50s) then this game's pvp would be in trouble and sadly it might be too late for pvp subscriber growth. I hope I'm wrong there.

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.17.2012 , 02:58 PM | #879
Quote: Originally Posted by DarthRaika View Post
Doom I see what you are saying but some things are more obvious than others. In the real world you almost never fully know what your client wants but you make best guesses and go with it.

...
=P Raika, I've been agreement with you this almost this whole time. That was a response to someone else who wanted to pull the "Let's just try this for a little while, what can it hurt?" argument.

LeonHawkeye's Avatar


LeonHawkeye
11.17.2012 , 03:00 PM | #880
Quote: Originally Posted by CommanderKeeva View Post
Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

Queue separation is very simple. It only measures one factor, whether someone presses the "Solo" or "Group" button. It is something that we can implement right now (or in the very near future)! It is not nearly as complex as match making. It is (and should be) a reasonable interim solution but are interim solutions not preferable to losing people?

And make no mistake this game is leaking subs like a rusty barrel leaks oil. I have talked to about two dozen people who returned to the game and jumped back into lvl50 PvP with their characters. Guess what, most of them are not having fun for the reasons we listed in over 85 pages. They came, played, lost, lost. lost, lost and lost again and left. Bang. So much for their PvP experience. First impressions are extremely important when judging something and right now PvP first impression is about as bad as they can get.

So yeah I'd love to see matchmaking implemented in the long run. But I'd also love to see more people actually like PvP and stick around RIGHT NOW. Queue separation is really simple and I see absolutely no reason why couldn't give it a go.

We need to make people stick around and queue separation is the right now the only thing that could achieve that.

too TL;DR?
Well said, and this is putting it lightly. There are an abundant amount of problems left unmentioned with the current system, most long term fixes but queue separation as you mention is simple, quick, and easy and will go a long way into welcoming players into PvP instead of repelling them.

Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
<.< Well since you didn't bother to tell me which part you were "debunking" I really have no idea what you're refering to, other then your usual babble.

Fact: Takes more effort to field 2 people than 1. It also takes more effort to field 4 people than 1.
Fact: Effort Influences rewards.
Fact: The less effort you give, the less you should be rewarded.

Seems pretty simple?
Try telling that to the massive amounts of people leaving the game because it simply isn't fun, balanced and sadly not even competitive. You and your special cupcakes will then be left to guess what... Play against each other. (Premade Vs Premade)

I'm not exactly sure why you have such a vendetta to keep Premades Vs Pugs, it holds absolutely no fruit for either side unless you have a hard on for rofl stomping pugs, which would make too much sense. If you truly support competition, you would gladly embrace anything that streamlines and better supports Premade Vs Premade play, but this apparently doesn't seem to be the case with those of you claiming for one excuse or another that Premades Vs Pugs is fine (It's not). Judging by your posts it is hard to argue that your "long queue" excuse is anything but a pretense to rofl stomp pugs, and it is a weak excuse at that. Sorry but no, if done right, premades would be pushed into Ranked, which is were they belong and should be all along. Ranked should be modified, I'll admit and give you that it's fairly dysfunctional as is but the simple fact is Premades don't belong in the same Warzones as Pugs.

We are left in a terrible position since we neither have an adequate matchmaking system nor cross realm queues, neither side wins, at the very least a higher emphasis needs to be placed on groups facing other groups. Ideally and a long term solution as we have mentioned and agreed would be proper matchmaking, cross realm to support a more robust pool of players and eventually the phasing out of Premade Vs Pug altogether, it would no longer be necessary nor wise to keep around, as is it punishes players to play on their own, this may be an MMO but that doesn't mean it should tell you and force you to play the game the way it wants you to play, that is a recipe for poor game design and one that is destined to fail. For whatever reason, a group isn't always available, punishing your playerbase for wanting to play your game outside of these inconvenient times will not encourage them to continue playing your game.

Take a look at some of the most population dense and successful games out there, I may not like them nor support them but they are successful and have millions of millions of subs for a reason, I am not saying this is the only reason but it is among the top; very few if any of them force Premade Vs Pug play on the player, they leave it as an option to the player when he/she feels ready for the competition and challenge. Force feeding your players with a frustrating experience and saying, "There, that is your playground, eat it and deal with it." Is not a very good business model nor one with much longevity.

Lastly I leave you with this question: Why would a game continue to support a clearly dysfunctional system which not only fails at it's task but effectively repels players, and is viciously unforgiving to new players just stepping into the arena and experiencing PvP for the first time. These players not only do not have the motive, nor the knowledge or social experience in the game to be consciously malicious, lazy or otherwise capable of the many other lies and slander you use to describe players that for whatever reason Solo queue. This system not only appeases a small portion of the player base (Premades) but manages to frustrate an alarmingly vast portion of the remaining playerbase (Pugs). Why, why in god's green earth would a game continue to support a system that repels it's own players from it's content?