=P not meaning to sound childish or rude, but adding "Period" on the end of your statement doesn't end the argument, doesn't strengthen your point, and really just sounds stupid.

 

Please explain to me why PuG's should get their own queue?

 

We're talking about people who are not willing to take 5 minutes and put a group together (or make friends to begin with). Their complaint is that they're losing, but they are unwilling to take the steps to fix that. I get there are times when PuG'ing is your only option (friends not on, only got a half hour or so, or simply not feeling social today.) Shouldn't an Massive Multiplayer Game be encouraging people to group up and step up?

 

If PuG's do get their own queue, why should they get rewards equal to the "group" queue?

 

The complain is once again, PuG's lose to premades because... because... better group composition, coordination, communication, etc... If PuG's get their own little casual happy-palace queue, why should they be rewarded for essentially wallowing in their sucktastic-ness. =P I know that sounds rude, but it's pretty much true.

 

Why do we need split queue's instead of (or with) proper matchmaking? Wouldn't a more flexible, inclusive system be better than split pools?

Somebody in this thread likes stomping on pugs. Can anyone guess ?

Somebody in this thread likes stomping on pugs. Can anyone guess ?

=P some one in this thread really hasn't read much of it, and jumps to conclussions. Care to guess?

Leon, I don't think cross server is off the table and I think they would like to. They have a smaller dev staff than they expected at this point and they need to prioritize.

If the game can keep a decent amount of money coming in then I'm sure cross server will eventually happen, however it does require some work and matchmaking would seemingly be much easier and be a pretty good fix to the current issues.

That is why I would like as many people to get behind a matchmaking system as possible so that that if a dev accidentally winds up on their forums they might make a matchmaking system!

I think we can all agree that a balanced matchmaking system (if it's even possible to achieve such) would benefit both sides more in the long run.

However, seeing that this is an imminent problem that might very well drive the majority of F2P players away (after all this thread does have 28.000 views and over 80 pages) would it really hurt to try separate queues just for a few weeks?

We could see how matches go in true PuG vs PuG situations (I'm guessing PuG players would instantly have far more fun) and if premades have to wait an atrocious time to get a queue (which they should anyway because they have multiple advantages over the typical PuG player (team composition, gear, skill, vent). we could always revert to a previous state (the one that drives F2P and casual subbers away).

By all means implement a proper matchmaking system that can achieve overall balance and gives a fair chance to win for both solo players and premaders. But by the same extension you could wish for an end to starvation or pollution. Or wish for world peace. These are awesome ideas on paper but they are just not possible to achieve.

What can be achieved is queue separation. All we're asking is a few weeks' long test. Maybe it would make the F2P players stick around, too. I'm sure they're having tons of fun losing their 5 matches a week against well-coordinated, well-geared premades. They can't even get their damn daily done.

I think we can all agree that a balanced matchmaking system (if it's even possible to achieve such) would benefit both sides more in the long run.

 

However, seeing that this is an imminent problem that might very well drive the majority of F2P players away (after all this thread does have 28.000 views and over 80 pages) would it really hurt to try separate queues just for a few weeks?

 

We could see how matches go in true PuG vs PuG situations (I'm guessing PuG players would instantly have far more fun) and if premades have to wait an atrocious time to get a queue (which they should anyway because they have multiple advantages over the typical PuG player (team composition, gear, skill, vent). we could always revert to a previous state (the one that drives F2P and casual subbers away).

 

By all means implement a proper matchmaking system that can achieve overall balance and gives a fair chance to win for both solo players and premaders. But by the same extension you could wish for an end to starvation or pollution. Or wish for world peace. These are awesome ideas on paper but they are just not possible to achieve.

 

What can be achieved is queue separation. All we're asking is a few weeks' long test. Maybe it would make the F2P players stick around, too. I'm sure they're having tons of fun losing their 5 matches a week against well-coordinated, well-geared premades. They can't even get their damn daily done.

I agree 100%

Let the premades go have thier fun and we PUGs go have our fun. We'll see who has the most fun

I think we can all agree that a balanced matchmaking system (if it's even possible to achieve such) would benefit both sides more in the long run.

 

However, seeing that this is an imminent problem that might very well drive the majority of F2P players away (after all this thread does have 28.000 views and over 80 pages) would it really hurt to try separate queues just for a few weeks?

 

We could see how matches go in true PuG vs PuG situations (I'm guessing PuG players would instantly have far more fun) and if premades have to wait an atrocious time to get a queue (which they should anyway because they have multiple advantages over the typical PuG player (team composition, gear, skill, vent). we could always revert to a previous state (the one that drives F2P and casual subbers away).

 

By all means implement a proper matchmaking system that can achieve overall balance and gives a fair chance to win for both solo players and premaders. But by the same extension you could wish for an end to starvation or pollution. Or wish for world peace. These are awesome ideas on paper but they are just not possible to achieve.

 

What can be achieved is queue separation. All we're asking is a few weeks' long test. Maybe it would make the F2P players stick around, too. I'm sure they're having tons of fun losing their 5 matches a week against well-coordinated, well-geared premades. They can't even get their damn daily done.

This reminds me of those religious arguments. "Come on, try God for a little. What can it hurt?"

Could the same argument not be made for matchmaking? Come on, let's just try this (better idea) for a few weeks, see how it goes?

y statistics. Using Bayes theorem, given that there is one premade (group of 4), the chance that the premade is on your side is 50%.

Reps can haz imp premades?

Why punish one group when both can benefit?

But pugs dont benefit.

Pugs gets stomped, pugs get frustrated, pugs quit.

=P not meaning to sound childish or rude, but adding "Period" on the end of your statement doesn't end the argument, doesn't strengthen your point, and really just sounds stupid.

 

Please explain to me why PuG's should get their own queue?

 

We're talking about people who are not willing to take 5 minutes and put a group together (or make friends to begin with). Their complaint is that they're losing, but they are unwilling to take the steps to fix that. I get there are times when PuG'ing is your only option (friends not on, only got a half hour or so, or simply not feeling social today.) Shouldn't an Massive Multiplayer Game be encouraging people to group up and step up?

 

If PuG's do get their own queue, why should they get rewards equal to the "group" queue?

 

The complain is once again, PuG's lose to premades because... because... better group composition, coordination, communication, etc... If PuG's get their own little casual happy-palace queue, why should they be rewarded for essentially wallowing in their sucktastic-ness. =P I know that sounds rude, but it's pretty much true.

 

Why do we need split queue's instead of (or with) proper matchmaking? Wouldn't a more flexible, inclusive system be better than split pools?

Actually it's easier for someone to just hit the solo queue button and get in a pvp match than trying to find people to form a group. Soo...just thought I would debunk another excuse really fast before my morning jog.

I assume you'll type "MMO!!!" which doesn't have the word group in it. Also CoD has a solo queue playlist and that is multiplayer. It's not a foreign concept.

I think we can all agree that a balanced matchmaking system (if it's even possible to achieve such) would benefit both sides more in the long run.

 

However, seeing that this is an imminent problem that might very well drive the majority of F2P players away (after all this thread does have 28.000 views and over 80 pages) would it really hurt to try separate queues just for a few weeks?

 

We could see how matches go in true PuG vs PuG situations (I'm guessing PuG players would instantly have far more fun) and if premades have to wait an atrocious time to get a queue (which they should anyway because they have multiple advantages over the typical PuG player (team composition, gear, skill, vent). we could always revert to a previous state (the one that drives F2P and casual subbers away).

 

By all means implement a proper matchmaking system that can achieve overall balance and gives a fair chance to win for both solo players and premaders. But by the same extension you could wish for an end to starvation or pollution. Or wish for world peace. These are awesome ideas on paper but they are just not possible to achieve.

 

What can be achieved is queue separation. All we're asking is a few weeks' long test. Maybe it would make the F2P players stick around, too. I'm sure they're having tons of fun losing their 5 matches a week against well-coordinated, well-geared premades. They can't even get their damn daily done.

Nice post and reasonable, I agree 100%. The current system doesn't bring in any new pvp blood, but you got people defending the current system yet still have trouble getting a lot of ranked matches....gee I wonder why?

I think we can all agree that a balanced matchmaking system (if it's even possible to achieve such) would benefit both sides more in the long run.

 

However, seeing that this is an imminent problem that might very well drive the majority of F2P players away (after all this thread does have 28.000 views and over 80 pages) would it really hurt to try separate queues just for a few weeks?

 

We could see how matches go in true PuG vs PuG situations (I'm guessing PuG players would instantly have far more fun) and if premades have to wait an atrocious time to get a queue (which they should anyway because they have multiple advantages over the typical PuG player (team composition, gear, skill, vent). we could always revert to a previous state (the one that drives F2P and casual subbers away).

 

By all means implement a proper matchmaking system that can achieve overall balance and gives a fair chance to win for both solo players and premaders. But by the same extension you could wish for an end to starvation or pollution. Or wish for world peace. These are awesome ideas on paper but they are just not possible to achieve.

 

What can be achieved is queue separation. All we're asking is a few weeks' long test. Maybe it would make the F2P players stick around, too. I'm sure they're having tons of fun losing their 5 matches a week against well-coordinated, well-geared premades. They can't even get their damn daily done.

This is true, i play in pvp guild and everyday queue with guildies in ranked queue and in normal also, but i wanna queue at least for 2/3 matches everyday solo and it sucks when pug is vs premade. Also when i am in premade and face turret, there is no fun when we cap and hold 3 turrets. I have min/maxed 2 toons and rly dont need comms just play for fun and its not fun sometimes. And there is reason to queue solo despite ppl say this is mmo. I often queue solo to hunt some unguilded ppl and its better chance to find some1 very good, and second reason is sometimes prefer play without headset, its not easy be 3-4 hours on mumble and have something on the head.

This is true, i play in pvp guild and everyday queue with guildies in ranked queue and in normal also, but i wanna queue at least for 2/3 matches everyday solo and it sucks when pug is vs premade. Also when i am in premade and face turret, there is no fun when we cap and hold 3 turrets. I have min/maxed 2 toons and rly dont need comms just play for fun and its not fun sometimes. And there is reason to queue solo despite ppl say this is mmo. I often queue solo to hunt some unguilded ppl and its better chance to find some1 very good, and second reason is sometimes prefer play without headset, its not easy be 3-4 hours on mumble and have something on the head.

The unbalance is obvious

So my understanding, and I could be mistaken, is that the que already tries to put a premade against premade and double premade against double premade in reg wzs. The que just prioritizes speed over balance.

You'll notice ques tend to pop all at once for people across your sever. I believe the reason for this is that the system only actually tries to create matches once every two minutes or so. I was under the impression though that when the system tried to create matches it did put premades against one another if it can, it just isn't willing to wait another 2 minutes cycle or two to make it happen. I think given how many subs BW lost when que times got long this is probably a wise decision on their part.

So if the above is true (and we can't know since BW hasn't told us, but my experiances through all the population chances and server merges suggest it is) what exactly do the "premades are runing it" people want done? Match making already exists, it just puts more emphesis on speed than you might like. Maybe they could have premades skip a two minute cycle if there isn't a premade to pair them against, but they can't really do more than that or the que times for the premades will make them quit. I don't believe people not getting matches or having to wait long periods of time to get matches is better for the health of the game than people losing but getting to play.

Matchmaking doesn't exist currently in any real sense. Also matchmaking is easy to set up. You can improve it later. You just put an up to X (few minutes imo) wait for premader q'rs and you allow different faction teams.

That is pretty easy to do. It won't solve all problems and in a perfect system we could take gear into account etc., however this simple system would help a lot and we could do more later.

Splitting q's without cross server would unfairly hurt premaders since it would be a long await at times to get 16 premaders. Also, remember what if there are 15 premaders in the q and now a team of 4 q? So for split q's you need much more than 16 premaders on to have fast q's and swtor would need to make some system to help in the above situation.

When you consider this I think a simple matchmaking system could be implemented faster and easier than a split q system and be far more helpful to our pvp community.

Matchmaking doesn't exist currently in any real sense.

The rest of your post is fine, but unless the "real sense" qualifier is in refference to the system already trying to put premade v premade and just not willing to skip a matching cycle to do it I think your mistaken. Obviously difficult to prove though now that our server populations are so high again.

Play in pugs and premades very often and you will see what I mean. I said "in any real sense" just incase they put some tiny thing in that no one I know has ever noticed. I don't think they have. I have tried to test it and I agree that I would need many more samples and need to make sure they are random etc to prove it but really I don't think they have one.

Also, in mmos that put one in it is very obvious right away. Even simple ones. I guess I'll just have to ask you to trust me on that.

I think they do have or at least had a premade matchmaking system. I thought it was particularly obvious after the first round of mergers. As a premade I fought other premades 70% of the time as a pug with only pugs on my team I'd say I went against premades maybe 30% of the time. It was also extremely rare for a pair of premades to go against a team with no premades and doulbe premade most often ended up against double premade. Those numbers most certainly don't hold true anymore though. It is quite possible BW ninja removed whatever system was doing that, but I think it is more likely that the number of premades have just dropped so it doesn't have anything to pair them against within a reasonable time frame anymore. Thus they end up against pugs.

I think cross server queing even with their weak matchmaking system would be enough to fix this problem.

Splitting q's without cross server would unfairly hurt premaders since it would be a long await at times to get 16 premaders. Also, remember what if there are 15 premaders in the q and now a team of 4 q? So for split q's you need much more than 16 premaders on to have fast q's and swtor would need to make some system to help in the above situation.

yes, it would cause premade queues to pop less frequently. no, it would not mean finding 16 premades. it's very simple (conceptually) to have 2 queues: the "solo queue" is exclusively for solo queueing (ikr?). the general queue (premade queue) is available to any solo or grp (1-4), aka: exactly what we have now.

the rationale:

• not every solo queuer cares if he's against a premade, and some want to gamble that they'll get the good premade on their team.
  
• grps aren't just 4 ppl. they are just as often 2 and 3. if the grp consists of 3 ppl, then that necessitates either at least 1 solo queuer in the grp, or an extremely lucky comibination of 2 grps of 3 and one grp of 2. so solo queuers have to be eligible for the grp queue - if they're willing.
  

do it or don't do it. I"m in favor of it, but it's not a huge deal. I can grp. I just dislike the either/or scenario where I either run into incompetent pugs or a premade with the best players on the server/faction. it doesn't feel like there's much middle ground when I queue.

foxmob i said 16 premadeRs. Not 16 premades. That was my point that not all are 4 people. lets say 3 groups of 4 q then 1 group of 3 then another group of 3. What happens here? You wait even longer. I'm not saying they never pop I am saying it is longer than you think.

Even a simple matchmaking system would help most pugs and most premades that want good fights. This is better than q sep.

Also, even if you disagree with my point above please be realistic. They are not going to do q sep no matter how much you want it.

If many of us agree on a simple matchmaking system they might do something about it. There is a difference between what you want and what you can realistically expect. If you only try for what you want you will get neither.

This reminds me of those religious arguments. "Come on, try God for a little. What can it hurt?"

 

Could the same argument not be made for matchmaking? Come on, let's just try this (better idea) for a few weeks, see how it goes?

Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

Queue separation is very simple. It only measures one factor, whether someone presses the "Solo" or "Group" button. It is something that we can implement right now (or in the very near future)! It is not nearly as complex as match making. It is (and should be) a reasonable interim solution but are interim solutions not preferable to losing people?

And make no mistake this game is leaking subs like a rusty barrel leaks oil. I have talked to about two dozen people who returned to the game and jumped back into lvl50 PvP with their characters. Guess what, most of them are not having fun for the reasons we listed in over 85 pages. They came, played, lost, lost. lost, lost and lost again and left. Bang. So much for their PvP experience. First impressions are extremely important when judging something and right now PvP first impression is about as bad as they can get.

So yeah I'd love to see matchmaking implemented in the long run. But I'd also love to see more people actually like PvP and stick around RIGHT NOW. Queue separation is really simple and I see absolutely no reason why couldn't give it a go.

An analogy: If someone suffers a life-threating injury he can't wait until he can be taken into the nearest hospital, where he can get proper treatment, he'll die before he gets there. In a critical state, that man needs a blood transfusion to actually survive the trip to the hospital. PvP in this game is also in a critical state and needs a serious blood transfusion or it will die. Simple as that. No new people, old ones get bored, everyone leaves, everyone loses.

We need to make people stick around and queue separation is the right now the only thing that could achieve that.

too TL;DR?

Actually it's easier for someone to just hit the solo queue button and get in a pvp match than trying to find people to form a group. Soo...just thought I would debunk another excuse really fast before my morning jog.

 

I assume you'll type "MMO!!!" which doesn't have the word group in it. Also CoD has a solo queue playlist and that is multiplayer. It's not a foreign concept.

<.< Well since you didn't bother to tell me which part you were "debunking" I really have no idea what you're refering to, other then your usual babble.

Fact: Takes more effort to field 2 people than 1. It also takes more effort to field 4 people than 1.

Fact: Effort Influences rewards.

Fact: The less effort you give, the less you should be rewarded.

Seems pretty simple?

Like I said in my post I'm all for matchmaking. By all means try it, I'd prefer a balanced matchmaking system over queue separation any day.

 

But see the problem is that the kind of matchmaking system we want is a long term goal. It is an incredibly complex technology that has to measure lots of different statistics and provide safeguards for the innumerable ways people will try to circumvent the system. It requires a ton of development, loads of money and innumerable hours of refining at best! Will it benefit the players in the long time? Hell yeah! Will people be actually around to benefit from the system when it is finally (if ever) implemented? Uhm...no...most of them won't be. It will be too late by then.

 

....

 

too TL;DR?

The problem (atleast I have) comes down to we do not know what is causing pvp to "dry up." In all honesty, none of us (players) have measurable statistics, opinion polls, or any form of indepth knowledge of the games inner workings. All we can do is use speculation, deduction, and logical reasoning.

PvP may be suffering from Premades vs. PuG's.

PvP may be suffering from the time it takes to Grind.

PvP may be suffering because it's too complex (not likely, but possible.)

PvP may be suffering because a gear gap exist.

PvP may be suffering from general population decline.

PvP may be suffering cause it's just plain boring.

PvP may be suffering from class imbalance.

PvP may be suffering because people are a bunch of cry babies.

The list could go on and on, and without any measurable data or poll (a forum poll won't do it, we either need an in-game poll or even the data some companies collected when you quit) we have no idea what's wrong with it. To tie into you ancedote about the man on his way to the hospital, it's like the EMT is just some random guy you pulled off the street and told "Keep this guy alive!" Maybe the patient does need a blood transfusion, or just a bandage, a glass of water, cpr, a miracle... The guy in the ambulance can only guess what is needed. Problem is, like any medical procedure, if he does the wrong thing it's just as likely to kill the patient as save him.

Of course, the next thing I say is speculation too but in my opinion: Bioware can not afford to make any more mistakes or wild guesses. Look at the general feeling of incompitence their players have for their dev team. We've seen patch after patch where some random change makes no sense, or they break something, or they make something worse (on purpose it seems). They can not afford to "just see how it goes" when the idea could be as harmful as it is helpful.