Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

PvP in it's glory day, a reflection on 1.1.5

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
PvP in it's glory day, a reflection on 1.1.5

LoL-K-Noob's Avatar


LoL-K-Noob
11.14.2012 , 01:38 PM | #41
Um no dude, you could double stack expertise buffs and use PvE adrenals back in the day and surge could get close to 90% before it got nerfed. That meant literal 3 hit Operatives and 10k smashes and PTs that could spam rail shot even faster. It would be a complete disaster if the knowledge people have now of builds were present at launch where everything was new and unknown. Except the Hybrid DPS Sage build that can proc an insta telekinetic wave from telekinetic throw, I want that back

Sowwy's Avatar


Sowwy
11.14.2012 , 02:13 PM | #42
We're not dealing with an all or nothing, black and white situation. Don't lean on a binary for easy digestion, you;ll miss the details. I agree that the presence of adrenals would be absurd in the current pvp environment, but that is an anachronistic argument and therefore pointless to discuss.

People lived longer pre-1.2 even with adrenals, which gave more leverage to tactics and less to burst. But for some obscure reason, BW made the decision to radically increase kill times in lieu of adjusting specific problem and then, also implementing a nasty gear grind with it.

I do miss the bags, tbh. Which at the time I would have never thought I'd say. But the gear grind (which doesn't stop at the Wh set) we have today coupled with the insane damage being done, makes getting properly geared one heck of a task. I do not understand BW's failure to connect with their players rather than forcing their vision on us sans restraint. Is it really so hard for a dev to understand the symbiotic nature between designer and player?

My server, though active, is without a doubt losing more pvpers every week. So, I can't help but wonder if we'd see less hemorrhaging of the pvp community if leveling and gearing alts wasn't as daunting a journey as it is now and tactical creativity had more influence than the number of PTs and/or smash-jugs.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 02:37 PM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Sowwy View Post
We're not dealing with an all or nothing, black and white situation. Don't lean on a binary for easy digestion, you;ll miss the details. I agree that the presence of adrenals would be absurd in the current pvp environment, but that is an anachronistic argument and therefore pointless to discuss.
It's very relevant because teams using VOIP and coordinating popping relics/adrenals and FFing someone was a problem. It also meant 10k sweep bombs.

Quote:
People lived longer pre-1.2 even with adrenals, which gave more leverage to tactics and less to burst. But for some obscure reason, BW made the decision to radically increase kill times in lieu of adjusting specific problem and then, also implementing a nasty gear grind with it.
People only lived longer back then because very few people were completely geared back then. So most of the people in WZs were cent/champ geared, with a few players being full BM. Most of the pvp population had similar gear. Now, you have WZs where half the people are full WH, and half at recruit/BM. Hence why people think TTK is too short.

[/quote]I do miss the bags, tbh. Which at the time I would have never thought I'd say. But the gear grind (which doesn't stop at the Wh set) we have today coupled with the insane damage being done, makes getting properly geared one heck of a task. I do not understand BW's failure to connect with their players rather than forcing their vision on us sans restraint. Is it really so hard for a dev to understand the symbiotic nature between designer and player? [/quote]

***? You think RNG bags were better than this system? What are you smoking? First in order to obtain BM gear, you had to be valor 60, so you had to grind a bunch of valor (you didn't get as much valor back then) in order to even START obtaining the best pvp gear. Then you had to get stupid bags that only had a 25% chance to drop 1 token, AND you need like 3 tokens to buy a piece. So on average it took about a week to obtain a piece of gear, but if you were one of the unlucky people then it took MUCH longer.

WH gear can be gotten the moment you hit 50, and doesn't require you to grind out valor. It also takes about a week per piece, except that there is no luck involved so you don't get screwed.

Quote:
My server, though active, is without a doubt losing more pvpers every week. So, I can't help but wonder if we'd see less hemorrhaging of the pvp community if leveling and gearing alts wasn't as daunting a journey as it is now and tactical creativity had more influence than the number of PTs and/or smash-jugs.


Just as daunting back then to gear alts.

Sowwy's Avatar


Sowwy
11.14.2012 , 03:00 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
It's very relevant because teams using VOIP and coordinating popping relics/adrenals and FFing someone was a problem. It also meant 10k sweep bombs.
Adrenals are no longer usable in warzones and no one is calling for their return, hence its irrelevant ..or as I said an anachronistic argument.



Quote:
People only lived longer back then because very few people were completely geared back then. So most of the people in WZs were cent/champ geared, with a few players being full BM. Most of the pvp population had similar gear. Now, you have WZs where half the people are full WH, and half at recruit/BM. Hence why people think TTK is too short.
Nope, we noticed the difference day one of 1.2 when everyone was still in BM gear. We wondered if defensive stats were working at all or something similar. But I do agree that the gap between aug'd min/max WH gear and recruit is too large.

Quote:
***? You think RNG bags were better than this system? What are you smoking? First in order to obtain BM gear, you had to be valor 60, so you had to grind a bunch of valor (you didn't get as much valor back then) in order to even START obtaining the best pvp gear. Then you had to get stupid bags that only had a 25% chance to drop 1 token, AND you need like 3 tokens to buy a piece. So on average it took about a week to obtain a piece of gear, but if you were one of the unlucky people then it took MUCH longer.
Difference of opinion. I'd rather gamble a shorter gear grind than be guaranteed a two month pursuit (even longer for many players).

Quote:
WH gear can be gotten the moment you hit 50, and doesn't require you to grind out valor. It also takes about a week per piece, except that there is no luck involved so you don't get screwed.
There is no benefit from a long gear grind. BW seems to have adopted the archaic EQ model of the distant carrot, but the MMO demographic has grown to include people with careers and families. The game should adapt to the times. Options are a good thing, for example, if when logging into the game I could choose from a multitude of alts instead of just 2 (which has taken me this long to fully gear) my game time would offer a broader experience. eg. I'm bored of my vanguard, so Ill play my shadow instead of logging off. Requiring a significant time investment to reach the baseline of competitiveness is an unnecessarily intimidating prospect and it surely puts many people off. And btw, retaining current players and attracting new players to pvp is a good for everyone.

Quote:
Just as daunting back then to gear alts
No because my alts didn't die as quickly pre1.2. So even though I still had quite the grind, I could at least enjoy more of it.

AMKSED's Avatar


AMKSED
11.14.2012 , 03:42 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by byteresistor View Post
That was entirely dependant on whether the rng was in your favor. I got very lucky on one character while on another I didn't see a single drop for a long time.
Well I'm talking about when they introduced the ability to buy BM Comms for 1K Merc Comms.

Macroecon's Avatar


Macroecon
11.14.2012 , 04:00 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Theoddones View Post
As mentioned the hero engine is one thing, but the biggest issue with ilum imo is the horrible design. If you have a design that causes the whole server to fight at the spawn of the map ofc it is going to lag like hell, I mean cmon, huge map with 3 meaningless and poorly designed objectives. If they had any clue they would have a design that forced people to split up and not all gather at one spot.

The rng bag system wasn't that bad, it was just frustrating putting in the same effort as your friends, then watching them get full BM in no time while you got nothing.
Couldn't agree more w.r.t. Ilum. They need a system with objective boxes/chests spawning at truely random locations throughout Ilum. And no I do not mean rotating amongst 20 fixed locations. That just causes crowded camping and the attendant lag. Truely random locations. And if one faction is winning most of the spawns in the last say 10 min, then there should be a higher probability that the spawns occur near npcs of the other faction. Proceeding until spawns actually occur in the losing side's home base.

As far as the RNG system, it was bad. That does not mean all RNG loot systems are bad. If they had made BM bags cost 3 times as much and made the chance of a a BM token 3x as large, everything would have been fine. But BM did not understand the statistical theory behind one sided (downward) variance and the result was thousands of pissed off customers. Math matters.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.14.2012 , 05:08 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Sowwy View Post
Adrenals are no longer usable in warzones and no one is calling for their return, hence its irrelevant ..or as I said an anachronistic argument.
And we don't use bags to buy gear anymore, but that didn't stop you from claiming pvp bags were better.



Quote:
Nope, we noticed the difference day one of 1.2 when everyone was still in BM gear. We wondered if defensive stats were working at all or something similar. But I do agree that the gap between aug'd min/max WH gear and recruit is too large.
Defensive stats haven't changed at all since launch in the way they work in pvp, so I don't know why you brought it up. The removal of relic/adrenals (damage portion) highered TTK while the expertise fix lowered TTK. I feel those two changes balanced out, and TTK hasn't changed all that much between equal geared players.

Quote:
Difference of opinion. I'd rather gamble a shorter gear grind than be guaranteed a two month pursuit (even longer for many players).
You're the only one that wants an RNG bag system vs. a guaranteed system. Nobody else wants to go back to that ****** RNG bag system but you. When people put in effort to get a reward, but then aren't rewarded (due to RNG), it makes them not want to play.

Quote:
There is no benefit from a long gear grind. BW seems to have adopted the archaic EQ model of the distant carrot, but the MMO demographic has grown to include people with careers and families. The game should adapt to the times. Options are a good thing, for example, if when logging into the game I could choose from a multitude of alts instead of just 2 (which has taken me this long to fully gear) my game time would offer a broader experience. eg. I'm bored of my vanguard, so Ill play my shadow instead of logging off. Requiring a significant time investment to reach the baseline of competitiveness is an unnecessarily intimidating prospect and it surely puts many people off. And btw, retaining current players and attracting new players to pvp is a good for everyone.
The gear grind is there to keep players hooked. Even GW2 only has standardized gear in their sPvP, but not in their world pvp. I don't mind having to grind out the gear for my main, but yes it's annoying having to regrind it on every subsequent alt, especially when SWTOR is designed for rolling alts.

Quote:
No because my alts didn't die as quickly pre1.2. So even though I still had quite the grind, I could at least enjoy more of it.
That's simply because of the lower gear gap. Back then the highest tier of pvp gear was BM which is 140 rating and no augments. Now we have 146 rating gear with full augments.

Sowwy's Avatar


Sowwy
11.14.2012 , 07:30 PM | #48
Quote:
And we don't use bags to buy gear anymore, but that didn't stop you from claiming pvp bags were better.
Defensive stats haven't changed at all since launch in the way they work in pvp, so I don't know why you brought it up. The removal of relic/adrenals (damage portion) highered TTK while the expertise fix lowered TTK. I feel those two changes balanced out, and TTK hasn't changed all that much between equal geared players.
You're very difficult to talk to. The change to TTK was sudden and unexpected. We were so surprised by the adjustment we gave the benefit of the doubt to BW, and wondered that perhaps things weren't being calculated correctly. Unfortunately, our hopes were dashed.


Quote:
You're the only one that wants an RNG bag system vs. a guaranteed system. Nobody else wants to go back to that ****** RNG bag system but you. When people put in effort to get a reward, but then aren't rewarded (due to RNG), it makes them not want to play.
I don't necessarily want the bag system, but I'd prefer it to what we have now. And it doesn't matter if its just me or 1000 other people.


Quote:
The gear grind is there to keep players hooked. Even GW2 only has standardized gear in their sPvP, but not in their world pvp. I don't mind having to grind out the gear for my main, but yes it's annoying having to regrind it on every subsequent alt, especially when SWTOR is designed for rolling alts.
Everyone understands this. Not everyone thinks it best.


Quote:
That's simply because of the lower gear gap. Back then the highest tier of pvp gear was BM which is 140 rating and no augments. Now we have 146 rating gear with full augments.
You're correct. I believe pvp would be more engaging, more rewarding and less intimidating to new players if the gap was reduced.