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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

AngelAlkaiser's Avatar


AngelAlkaiser
11.13.2012 , 05:43 PM | #121
There is really no such thing as class balancing. If every class was equally balanced, what's the point in having 8 to choose from? It's no secret to anyone that mercenary is in uneffective PvP class. To say that they are unusable would be a bit of an overstatement. There are better classes to play, and everyone is welcomed to play one. If you've done the work to top with one class, legacy makes it fairly easy to continue on. Leveling to 50 isn't a long, or difficult trek at all.

Serious PvP is an extremely hardcore endeavor. When you have 8 people in one team, consulting on how to get better, each person playing specific class combinations is inevitable. It may be that your main is a sentinel, however, your teammates know you are better at healing. So they ask you to play a healer class instead.

I assure you that having 8 sentinels on one PvP team is not a sound strategy. It wouldn't even be a sound strategy if you went 4 sentinels, and 4 healers to keep them alive.

They may have overpowered defensive CDs. They may even be the easiest class to play. Truthfully they're one of the most ineffective in a warzone. Considering the high demand for mezs and stuns, it's simply not tactical to kill everything when you can stun to easily achieve your objective.

Sentinels won't do a good job at trapping people in acid, or fire. There's no way to conceal their presence on a node. And if you manage to actually cripple a sentinels HP to such a low level where Guarded by the Force is a benefit, the odds are pretty likely they will die. Because if not, they wouldn't have activated the ability to begin with.

They have almost no escapbility. They can cloak, activate a movement boost, and run, but they will be leapt to and cut down like anything that will uncloak.

If you do not kill them, they will chase and cut through HP like a knife through butter. Without superior equipment, they won't win a 2v1. Much less a 3v1. Not against people who are versed in how to micro manage their cooldowns. Rebuke is the most useful one. Saber Ward means nothing unless you're being targetted by force powers. Namely lightning. And Guarded by the Force means you are aware you are going to die, you just refuse to do so for 4 more seconds. In some cases, you will before those 4 seconds are up. While the damage reduction is extremely high, if you are being targetted by several people at once, their attacks may be enough to drop you anyway.

Hardly what I would consider a god mode. You really need to be smash spec in order to cause significant damage without centering stacked. Let's also not forget that even though you are given 6 immediate attacks, you probably won't get them all off without needing to use a basic attack, a force stasis, or a zealot strike. Only a basic attack if the rest are not on CD.

Given, sentinels are incredibly powerful. But they do what they are intended to do. Whether it's easy, or hard, it's irrelevent. There's no false idea about unless you truly believe they are "hands down" the best PvP class.

They probably are the best PvP class. By no means is it hands down, though. I would say in some cases, guardians are even better. Situation pending, of course.

Fortunately, warzones aren't a DPS race. So it's kind of irrelevent how much damage you do if your team ends up losing. And the funny part is, no warzone actually even takes into consideration how much damage you do.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.13.2012 , 07:29 PM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
True, but not every class is suited to node defending and balancing to account for 1v1s with all classes would be a disaster. Node defending requires the classes that are best suited to it (mara, op, sin, sniper arguably, potentially others). PvP as a whole means that this cannot determine balance, you just have to roll with it.

PT burst is significantly stronger than marauders and cannot be countered well outside of a long cc. Can't be interupted (like ravage), cleansed well (like annilihation) or kited well (like rage). They do drop quickly when focused which is exactly as it should be, they are a class cannon, burst balanced by lower survival.

Note that UD is a defensive cooldown, of course they're going to be better off if they use it, what would be the point otherwise? Other classes have access to other defensives, but the nature of those defensives mean they should be used at a different time. UD just before death, most others just before damage is taken (clever applications aside).

I agree with your point about not focusing marauders first. This is perfectly fine as they can be countered well enough to avoid needing to be focused immediately. A good team will notice when the cooldowns are used and focus then if need be.
I would not say VG burst is significantly stronger than sent, seeing as how a sweep bomb into a group of people is harder to heal through than just one person getting nuked. You're right that VGs are glass cannons, and guess what the best counter to a glass cannon is? Kill them first. That doesn't work with sents, and chain CCing them doesn't quite work if their team has good healers that know what cleanse is.

I agree with you the game shouldn't be balanced SOLELY around 1v1s, but it should be balanced around it partially. I'm fine with having a LoL type (rock, paper, scissor) balance for 1v1s, but currently it's rock, paper, scissor, HULKSMASH, where sent, vgs, shadows are the HULKSMASH that own everyone else. That's not ok.

In WoW (the only other MMO I've played seriously), every class had a good chance to beat most other classes, and get utterly owned by some (or at least manage to stalemate). And they still managed to balance the overall larger scale pvp quite well.

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 08:55 PM | #123
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
I would not say VG burst is significantly stronger than sent, seeing as how a sweep bomb into a group of people is harder to heal through than just one person getting nuked. You're right that VGs are glass cannons, and guess what the best counter to a glass cannon is? Kill them first. That doesn't work with sents, and chain CCing them doesn't quite work if their team has good healers that know what cleanse is.

I agree with you the game shouldn't be balanced SOLELY around 1v1s, but it should be balanced around it partially. I'm fine with having a LoL type (rock, paper, scissor) balance for 1v1s, but currently it's rock, paper, scissor, HULKSMASH, where sent, vgs, shadows are the HULKSMASH that own everyone else. That's not ok.

In WoW (the only other MMO I've played seriously), every class had a good chance to beat most other classes, and get utterly owned by some (or at least manage to stalemate). And they still managed to balance the overall larger scale pvp quite well.
I'll give it to you on the aoe burst point, my error for forgeting that. However, I've never really worried about smash as an aoe, 3+ people standing beside each other for the smash is just plain stupid. I think most of us agree rage needs a minor nerf too.

I'd agree with partial balancing for 1v1s if that didn't detract from group pvp (which should trump all), I was getting a bit irritated at people insisting 1v1s were the sole determinant of a class and so generalised slightly. I don't really like the rock paper scissors system though, as long as there are counters to a class I see no need for classes specifically suited for defeating another. I prefer skill deciding the winner where possible (limited by the need for group balance, but that's as it should be).
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council

WaywardOne's Avatar


WaywardOne
11.13.2012 , 09:45 PM | #124
I really don't get the UR hate - it just doesn't break down under any logical scrutiny at all. At least I haven't heard the logic...

What's the difference between UR and a 4-second hard stun ability (assume, hypothetically, that a mara has a choice of either)?

With UR the mara is getting cc'd, taking a little damage (no joke - I've died several times from damage while under UR) and the mara is swinging away (if he's not cc'd). So far so good.

With a 4 second stun the mara is swinging away, not taking any damage (you're stunned) - he can't be cc'd by you (because you're stunned) _and_ he's getting healed if he has a healer on him, omg.

Ah, you say... but I can pop my trinket ability during the hypothetical mara 4-second stun. That is true - that's one def every two min (or so) to stop this hypothetical stun. But, you can always stun or kb or root/snare a UR affected Mara or you can vanish/sprint away or pop heals/defenses of your own or do any number of things - lots more options vs the UR mara - almost all with lower cooldowns than the trinket vs the stun.

Are healers afraid of maras running up to them and hitting their UR button? NO (they would -laugh- and hit you with a dot if you pulled that in a 1v1). As a mara, I would much much much rather have a 4 second stun than UR. UR is nice because it lets you pretend your a god when you're fighting 5 people and got them all to focus on you but it's a very short-lived feeling.

And let's not forget that while a stun never costs the caster of the stun anything, the caster of UR loses half his health. That is not something you spam for fun.

Note, if we're talking about a 2v2 or a 3v3 or a 4v4 situation and the mara is getting heals while popping UR every 45 secs... why are you attacking the mara at all (or -any- dps) and not the healer(s) and/or tanks?

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 10:42 PM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
I really don't get the UR hate - it just doesn't break down under any logical scrutiny at all. At least I haven't heard the logic...

What's the difference between UR and a 4-second hard stun ability (assume, hypothetically, that a mara has a choice of either)?

With UR the mara is getting cc'd, taking a little damage (no joke - I've died several times from damage while under UR) and the mara is swinging away (if he's not cc'd). So far so good.

With a 4 second stun the mara is swinging away, not taking any damage (you're stunned) - he can't be cc'd by you (because you're stunned) _and_ he's getting healed if he has a healer on him, omg.

Ah, you say... but I can pop my trinket ability during the hypothetical mara 4-second stun. That is true - that's one def every two min (or so) to stop this hypothetical stun. But, you can always stun or kb or root/snare a UR affected Mara or you can vanish/sprint away or pop heals/defenses of your own or do any number of things - lots more options vs the UR mara - almost all with lower cooldowns than the trinket vs the stun.

Are healers afraid of maras running up to them and hitting their UR button? NO (they would -laugh- and hit you with a dot if you pulled that in a 1v1). As a mara, I would much much much rather have a 4 second stun than UR. UR is nice because it lets you pretend your a god when you're fighting 5 people and got them all to focus on you but it's a very short-lived feeling.

And let's not forget that while a stun never costs the caster of the stun anything, the caster of UR loses half his health. That is not something you spam for fun.

Note, if we're talking about a 2v2 or a 3v3 or a 4v4 situation and the mara is getting heals while popping UR every 45 secs... why are you attacking the mara at all (or -any- dps) and not the healer(s) and/or tanks?
You don't understand your ability very well at all. If you died while using it then you must have clicked it as absurdly low HP and if you ever lose 50% health when you activate it then you need to L2P. Using it at full health is LOL.

And FYI there is a LOT of difference between UR and a stun ability. How can you even compare the two? Really guy? You really don't have a grasp of your class if you would trade UR for a 4 sec hard stun.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 10:54 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
You don't understand your ability very well at all. If you died while using it then you must have clicked it as absurdly low HP and if you ever lose 50% health when you activate it then you need to L2P. Using it at full health is LOL.

And FYI there is a LOT of difference between UR and a stun ability. How can you even compare the two? Really guy? You really don't have a grasp of your class if you would trade UR for a 4 sec hard stun.
I believe his point is that UR functions similarly to a hard stun, but not as effective. He is both correct and incorrect in this statement. He is correct in that you could stun someone when you have almost no health and beat on them for 4 seconds to win the fight just as easily as popping UR. The negative to UR is that it can only be done at the end of a fight without sacrificing massive amounts of health, so it is indeed less effective than a stun. The downside to a stun, however, is that it only affects one opponent whereas UR mitigates damage by 99% on anyone who happens to attack. In a 1v1 situation, the stun is better, but in a group setting UR is still a superior ability.
I have opinions and stuff

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 10:58 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I believe his point is that UR functions similarly to a hard stun, but not as effective. He is both correct and incorrect in this statement. He is correct in that you could stun someone when you have almost no health and beat on them for 4 seconds to win the fight just as easily as popping UR. The negative to UR is that it can only be done at the end of a fight without sacrificing massive amounts of health, so it is indeed less effective than a stun. The downside to a stun, however, is that it only affects one opponent whereas UR mitigates damage by 99% on anyone who happens to attack. In a 1v1 situation, the stun is better, but in a group setting UR is still a superior ability.
Yeah but UR has a LOT more used than winning a 1v1 fight. We are talking godmode ability for objectives here. Nothing close to a hard stun at all.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.13.2012 , 11:23 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by WaywardOne View Post
I really don't get the UR hate - it just doesn't break down under any logical scrutiny at all. At least I haven't heard the logic...

What's the difference between UR and a 4-second hard stun ability (assume, hypothetically, that a mara has a choice of either)?

With UR the mara is getting cc'd, taking a little damage (no joke - I've died several times from damage while under UR) and the mara is swinging away (if he's not cc'd). So far so good.

With a 4 second stun the mara is swinging away, not taking any damage (you're stunned) - he can't be cc'd by you (because you're stunned) _and_ he's getting healed if he has a healer on him, omg.

Ah, you say... but I can pop my trinket ability during the hypothetical mara 4-second stun. That is true - that's one def every two min (or so) to stop this hypothetical stun. But, you can always stun or kb or root/snare a UR affected Mara or you can vanish/sprint away or pop heals/defenses of your own or do any number of things - lots more options vs the UR mara - almost all with lower cooldowns than the trinket vs the stun.

Are healers afraid of maras running up to them and hitting their UR button? NO (they would -laugh- and hit you with a dot if you pulled that in a 1v1). As a mara, I would much much much rather have a 4 second stun than UR. UR is nice because it lets you pretend your a god when you're fighting 5 people and got them all to focus on you but it's a very short-lived feeling.

And let's not forget that while a stun never costs the caster of the stun anything, the caster of UR loses half his health. That is not something you spam for fun.

Note, if we're talking about a 2v2 or a 3v3 or a 4v4 situation and the mara is getting heals while popping UR every 45 secs... why are you attacking the mara at all (or -any- dps) and not the healer(s) and/or tanks?
Your argument is so dumb I'm not sure I should respond to it, but I will. A stun doesn't prevent a person from getting FFed, which is what kills people in pvp. GBTF on the other hand prevents you from getting FFed. People hate GBTF because it is a guaranteed 4 more seconds of life when being FFed. 4 more seconds is a long time in pvp because that means 4 seconds u can hold an objective longer, kill someone else, or be healed.

You do have a stun, its called force stasis. Yes it is a self stun and channeled, but it does pretty good damage. Other classes stuns may be instant, but theirs don't do much damage at all. That is the trade off.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.14.2012 , 01:32 AM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by cub-lover View Post
although i agree with you about saberward being a jug/guardian only abilty it wont happen becasue it would require bw to do soem work and re-write the hole jedi/sith warrior class

FYI i recently speced my mara into carnage from anihlation
It won't, tbh, depending on how they go about it.

Baseline Saber Ward could be like Shadow Deflection (Defense bonus alone - most enemies on Korriban that you'd use Saber Ward against are white damage only), while Guard/Jugg Saber Ward could have its current full effect (+50% defense, 25%Force/Tech resist - although I'd bump it up to 25% *all* damage resist, or, at the very least, all *yellow* damage resist, including int/ele).
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.14.2012 , 04:25 AM | #130
Operatives are actually surprisingly strong. Heals obviously, but dps can do quite well too. I've been guilty of mocking operatives, so my GM rolled on, and manages a pretty respectable 1500-600 in untoptimised campaign (we carried him through it). More utility would be nice though.
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council