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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 02:37 PM | #111
Quote: Originally Posted by Phasersablaze View Post
I said it (I'm the thread starter). Marauders would be a very good class to balance around.

And I didn't mention PT Pyros because they would be a very poor class to use as a blueprint. When played well they CAN have a lot of utility (taunt, AE CC, Grapple) but as a general rule they are pretty clunky and really only do well because of their incredible burst DPS ability. And when I say clunky I mean that they are not very mobile, and don't have a lot of tools to use. Basically without their massive burst DPS they would be another vanilla DPS class with poor mobility. You might be able to make the AP mobility argument, but they have to sacrifice a lot of burst capability for that.
I'd agree with this, but it makes the point that marauders are not the sole good class (I certainly agree they're not a viable blueprint, way too easy to do well in). The viable classes are all excellent when played well and relatively balanced between each other. In my view, the non-viable classes need to be buffed up to this level, rather than 1 of the viables getting brought down.

Quote: Originally Posted by BoDiE View Post
A lot of bluster from the maras.
So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

Can't wait for the nerf.
15k in 4 seconds requires 7.5k per hit (GCD= 1.5 secs, UD lasts 4 seconds so only 2 abilities can be used) which is almost impossible for a marauder. Would be possible with rage, but 1 spec shouldn't determine class balance and most agree rage needs a bit of tuning anyway.

I would certainly take marauders in world pvp, UD would become even more crucial with the masses of damage flying about (predation would be even more powerful too). Cloak isn't a problem as it only lasts a few seconds, just keep an eye out for where they pop up. Note that they aren't immune to ccs either, requires the use of cooldowns (and then only limited) that would have been useful if not 'wasted'.
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.13.2012 , 02:42 PM | #112
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post
Er, who cares if someone can win 1v1s? If you're in a 1v1 you're not playing objectives (unless guarding/soloing a point).
Seeing as how every WZ except huttball always requires someone to be guarding the off node, 1v1s are somewhat important.

Quote:
Powertechs still have the highest damage output in PvP and are arguably the easiest dps class to play, strange that this is not mentioned. To be honest, I think the real reason marauders are played so much are the dual lightsabers, the single pistol for pts isn't as exciting.
PTs also drop like a little ***** when FFed. They also really have no utility outside of pull. Sents have almost as much burst, but much better surv and way more utility. And people were complaining about PTs just as much as sents before 1.4, but PTs got nerfed quite a bit so people don't complain about them as much.

Quote:
I don't understand this fuss about healing during UD. If a healer stops healing everyone to burst a mara back up, he cannot heal anyone else well in that time. and if he's a op or merc, could drop into a lower energy band and gimp himself until it regenerates. Note that if we're talking about balance in high level pvp, my heal with be interupted by the dps assigned to shut me down, so I'll only be able to use a hot and my minor heal. Not really that intimidating Without the healing it becomes a 4 second life extender as straight afterwards you will die, ruining it as a defensive cooldown (1v1s are irrelevant in serious pvp). I wil revise my opinion if you can prove this will improve balance (godmode QQ is not a reasoned argument).
Replace the sent in your situation with any other class, and guess what? It's even worse off for the healer. Also, the fact that everyone KNOWS sents have all these abilities makes them unlikely FF targets. CoP, camo, GBTF are all deterrents that force teams to FF anyone but sents first.



Quote:
I did forget to take account of surgical probe spam in my initial statements, which will most likely be the heal used. Assuming 40% crit for an operative healer, he would able to get 2 probes off (GCD of 1.5 seconds x 2 = 3 -will get a third off half a second later assuming mara survives the 0.5 seconds) there would be 1 crit and 1 standard heal. This means a total healing of about 5.5k (3.5k crit, 2k normal) with 2k more soon after. This equates to about a quarter of the marauder's health and is operative only, proving with skilled players UD is less of a concern (with no interupts would be about 10k -two injections one crit one normal).
Any other class in that situation would be dead, whereas the sent comes out with 1/4 of the HP still. That's a huge difference.

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 02:44 PM | #113
Quote: Originally Posted by BoDiE View Post
A lot of bluster from the maras.
So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

Can't wait for the nerf.
I would like to respond, but I'm not exactly sure what you are claiming with all of this. I assume you are complaining about Rage with the 6.6k derps, which is more of a warrior issue than just maras. I assume cloak is their force camo, which lasts all of 4 seconds (6 if talented in carnage) and they continue being damaged, so if they have a DoT they still die. If you take 15k damage from them during UR, then you are going to die long before they have to use it. Maybe you should consider what you could do differently to avoid 15k damage in 5 seconds (3 globals). Is speed buff in reference to predation? This is not available on demand (unless other CDs are up) and stops them from using some other abilities that may be more helpful to their spec (Berserk for shockwave in Rage, heals in Anni, or lower GCD and rage cost of abilities in carnage).

Based on your comments, perhaps you should look more into the class and learn how to counter the abilities that are giving you the most trouble and plan accordingly. There is plenty of material out on these forums as well as third party sites to assist you if you continually have problems with marauders.
I have opinions and stuff

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 02:55 PM | #114
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
Seeing as how every WZ except huttball always requires someone to be guarding the off node, 1v1s are somewhat important.



PTs also drop like a little ***** when FFed. They also really have no utility outside of pull. Sents have almost as much burst, but much better surv and way more utility. And people were complaining about PTs just as much as sents before 1.4, but PTs got nerfed quite a bit so people don't complain about them as much.



Replace the sent in your situation with any other class, and guess what? It's even worse off for the healer. Also, the fact that everyone KNOWS sents have all these abilities makes them unlikely FF targets. CoP, camo, GBTF are all deterrents that force teams to FF anyone but sents first.





Any other class in that situation would be dead, whereas the sent comes out with 1/4 of the HP still. That's a huge difference.
True, but not every class is suited to node defending and balancing to account for 1v1s with all classes would be a disaster. Node defending requires the classes that are best suited to it (mara, op, sin, sniper arguably, potentially others). PvP as a whole means that this cannot determine balance, you just have to roll with it.

PT burst is significantly stronger than marauders and cannot be countered well outside of a long cc. Can't be interupted (like ravage), cleansed well (like annilihation) or kited well (like rage). They do drop quickly when focused which is exactly as it should be, they are a class cannon, burst balanced by lower survival.

Note that UD is a defensive cooldown, of course they're going to be better off if they use it, what would be the point otherwise? Other classes have access to other defensives, but the nature of those defensives mean they should be used at a different time. UD just before death, most others just before damage is taken (clever applications aside).

I agree with your point about not focusing marauders first. This is perfectly fine as they can be countered well enough to avoid needing to be focused immediately. A good team will notice when the cooldowns are used and focus then if need be.
Seikier - Operative Healer
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TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 02:57 PM | #115
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
I don't think removing healing during UR would have quite the impact that many players expect it would. Theoretically, if the mara/sent has a pocket healer that can burst heal them during UR, they should be your target first and the mara/sent no longer has heals. Medpacks would be the exception, but if UR didn't allow for healing, they would just use it prior to UR for the same effect. It's similar to those who argued against reducing sorc's stun down to 10 meters. If you are using your stun correctly (as an escape mechanism or gap creator) then 10 meters is plenty of range and the nerf only affects those who are not using it correctly. I have no problems with making the suggestion you have, but it will only benefit those players who don't focus on the healers first (coming from a healers perspective no less).

As for force camo, it is both highly overrated by other classes and underrated by mara/sents. It is the only way to avoid being rooted to death by snipers without using CC breaker on it. Every other class (aside from jugg/guardian and this is their biggest problem) has abilities that can continue to be used throughout the duration of a root from outside of 10 meters. I'm not saying it is an ideal rotation, but all other classes can do some damage while rooted and at distance. It is an integral part of the kite/antikite dynamic in place at the moment.

That being said, this is not an ability in comparison to what is given to actual stealth classes. It is short duration and they continue taking damage from DoTs as well as any AOEs in the area, so it can't be utilized at the very end right before death. I don't believe this ability can be removed, but I do feel it is available too frequently. It's currently (could be wrong, so correct me if I am) at a 45 sec CD, and could probably increase by about 30 seconds. On my mid level mara, I feel like it is available for use in every fight and I don't think that is necessary.
Agree to disagree because this will only go back and forth. I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 03:01 PM | #116
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.
This is true sadly, but I think most will agree PTs were too easy to do well with. I really hope Bioware stops constantly nerfing, not fun for anyone.

Snipers actually have a lot of defense, just not in the form of cooldowns. With tonnes of roots, knockbacks, absorbs, white damage avoidance, cover, etc they are very strong defensively. Maras are still stronger defensively, but as a melee dps this is how it should be. As an aside, mercs need some of these
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 03:13 PM | #117
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Agree to disagree because this will only go back and forth. I do agree with the suggestion by another poster that to bring other classes up to the marauders level, but since they nerfed PT's it seems they want to go down that path rather than buffing classes.

Don't touch the marauders damage output, but tweak the def CD's they get. I already suggested what should be done about those CD's without hindering them in PVE. You gotta remember it's a pure DPS class, I don't see snipers having this much defense but their output is stellar, as it should be.
Agreed, but I don't think any of them really need to be changed or removed, simply longer cooldowns. CoP is up every minute and can last as long as 30 seconds depending on the competence of the opponent. Saber Ward is probably the only cooldown I wouldn't extend at all, it is well balanced and shared by jugg/guardian. The strictly PVE people I roll with were shocked when it was suggested to use UR when kephess leaps at them in TFB, they don't even have it keybound. They only use force camo when pulling aggro from the tank and pop one of CoP or SW if there is a cleave or unavoidable damage coming. I don't think changing DCDs will have any significant impact on PVE content other than leveling for less skilled players and let's face it, we're really not balancing things for leveling anyway.
I have opinions and stuff

DariusCalera's Avatar


DariusCalera
11.13.2012 , 03:41 PM | #118
Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
How many 5 people AOEs do you know of that happen per WZ? Do you play a Rage/Focus spec? I do and I can call BS on seeing a 5-person hit in every WZ. The most you generally get is a 3 person hit, and that requires the correct circumstances.
Never said that it did occur in every WZ, and you are correct that a 3 person hit is more likely but it is possible to hit 5 within the game mechanics and I have seen it occur. However, those correct circumstances that you speak of for the 3 person hit occur pretty often in most of the WZs with the only exception being Huttball because it is far more fluid than the others.

Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
Trooper hard hitting abilities are also guaranteed 2.5k hits EVERY TIME, without a crit. When they do crit, they hit for 3.5-4k. That's basically a filler ability that hits for 2.5k when not criting, whereas my VS hits for 2.5-2.7k on a crit, so yeah the damage potential is absolutely there. You let a guy spam Grav round and he will be top DPS, you get 3 Arsenal spec players and they will cause atrocious damage because you can't lock down all 3 Mercs at once.
They only hit that hard IF you manage to get 5 stacks of Grav Round on your target and, in the case of FA, get a COF proc. If you don't they're going to hit for much less.

The damage potential for each I will agree is about even. However, the difference is that a commando's damage is all back loaded, extremely easy to shut down, and is totally dependent on the commando not getting noticed.

To be honest, it is not the single target damage of a smash spec Mara/Sent or Jugg/Guardian that I have the problem with. It's the AOE aspect of it and being able to hit so many, in so short amount of time, for so much damage.

PoliteAssasin's Avatar


PoliteAssasin
11.13.2012 , 03:54 PM | #119
You know I can't believe people are still crying about this clas even after all the nerfs we've gone through. Rather than complain on the forums, learn to play. Unfortunately firmly QQers Bioware knows the class functions and that it is not overpowered. That's why there isn't a healing block dying UR, because that would break annihilation and watchman specs. To those complaining about our 6 second camo, its 6 seconds! Other classes have permanent stealth if they choose to use it. It's also instrumental in how we decimate those Knockback prone snipers and gunslingers.

Bottom line, the stuff you are whining about isn't going to be changed. It would break the class. Watchman already received a nerf to our burn damage. We all received a nerf to force camo damage reduction, and we all received a nerf to gbtf/ur. You can literally stun it for the whole duration with one stun now. Complaining about pocket healers could work for anyone. News flash, not every marauder or sentinel runs around with dedicated heals. Some of us do it on our own. When a watchman or annihilation activates UR and sets off heals, immunity lasts for only 4 seconds. Stun them, then finish them off. You have a medpac use it. Learn to play, don't complain because you were outplayed. People need to stop whining so much. Enough is enough.
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NamikazeNaruto's Avatar


NamikazeNaruto
11.13.2012 , 04:49 PM | #120
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliteAssasin View Post
You know I can't believe people are still crying about this clas even after all the nerfs we've gone through. Rather than complain on the forums, learn to play. Unfortunately firmly QQers Bioware knows the class functions and that it is not overpowered. That's why there isn't a healing block dying UR, because that would break annihilation and watchman specs. To those complaining about our 6 second camo, its 6 seconds! Other classes have permanent stealth if they choose to use it. It's also instrumental in how we decimate those Knockback prone snipers and gunslingers.

Bottom line, the stuff you are whining about isn't going to be changed. It would break the class. Watchman already received a nerf to our burn damage. We all received a nerf to force camo damage reduction, and we all received a nerf to gbtf/ur. You can literally stun it for the whole duration with one stun now. Complaining about pocket healers could work for anyone. News flash, not every marauder or sentinel runs around with dedicated heals. Some of us do it on our own. When a watchman or annihilation activates UR and sets off heals, immunity lasts for only 4 seconds. Stun them, then finish them off. You have a medpac use it. Learn to play, don't complain because you were outplayed. People need to stop whining so much. Enough is enough.
The problem is your staying power in a group environment. You say to stun undying rage and everything will be hunky dory. This is not the case if there is a healer healing him. In that case, he would've been dead if he didn't have his pocket invincibility. However, with a healer, he'll come out healed to about half his hp when every other class would've been dead in that situation. Same applies with force camo. A skilled Marauder just has so many tools with which to stay alive. Before I would've put a lot of effort into stating my points, however Bioware will probably delete this thread like they do all the others that call out Marauders.


So I'll sum it up just by saying... a Marauder is a class that has the defensive cooldowns of a tank. Note I am not talking about passive mitigation without a cooldown up, which is the only reason a pure tank can survive longer than a Marauder. However, it cannot be denied that Marauders have the most and the best defensive cooldowns in the game. However, they still possess the DPS of a pure DPS class. I'm glad some people just can't admit there is an issue with this.