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Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Debunking false ideas about Mara/Sents in PVP

AsiriusNazriel's Avatar


AsiriusNazriel
11.13.2012 , 12:23 PM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Because they get a 3 sec god mode....that's it.

Let's check out marauders though:

God mode
Invis + dmg reduction
Cloak of pain
Saber ward
Self heals


Let's keep comparing Ops vs marauders though and see who wins the OP challenge.
4-second non-channeled stun
8-second mez
Dedicated burst heals > 2% heal on a crit
God mode
Perma-invisibility
3-sec God mode and burst heals to replenish all health
Out of combat 8 second mez
Cover mechanic for preventing Force Charge

AND top of this, I don't care about operatives. They are FINE! I don't care if they have burst heals or a 3 second god mode, it's part of the class.

QQ away.
Pax Imperius & Pax Dominus
Arash a.k.a. "Chuck Norris of PVP"

AsiriusNazriel's Avatar


AsiriusNazriel
11.13.2012 , 12:25 PM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Helig View Post
100% immunity to white, *or* yellow attacks, is, by definition, not "god mode". No class gets full immunity to both damage and CC. UR shields against all damage, Shroud protects against 99.9% CC and 100% yellow damage, Evasion provides "immunity" to white damage (they still can, theoretically, be hit by special attacks at accuracy greater than 90% and basic attacks at accuracy greater than 100%).
The point is that Marauders are not the only class that get's a 'so-called' God Mode...

Our God Mode as you call it costs 50% health...

Every mechanic, whether it is UD or Force Shroud or Operative 3 sec thing, IS DIFFERENT.
Pax Imperius & Pax Dominus
Arash a.k.a. "Chuck Norris of PVP"

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 12:27 PM | #103
Quote: Originally Posted by cycao View Post
I wouldn't call it god mode. Only 3 seconds and all classes have weapon based damage (some hit pretty darn hard) but eh, I can counter shroud/resilience with a nice low slash and dance around them while the effect wares off.
Tell that to the sorcs, I had to ditch those 2 lightsaber keybinds a long time ago. I'm not saying I have a problem with force shroud, but I would rather have that than UR any day. It can also be used when it is most needed, not simply to live 4 seconds longer. And there is always an answer to the abilities of classes that need melee range: run away. It's just not what people want to do.
I have opinions and stuff

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 12:31 PM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
4-second non-channeled stun
8-second mez
Dedicated burst heals > 2% heal on a crit
God mode
Perma-invisibility
3-sec God mode and burst heals to replenish all health
Out of combat 8 second mez
Cover mechanic for preventing Force Charge

AND top of this, I don't care about operatives. They are FINE! I don't care if they have burst heals or a 3 second god mode, it's part of the class.

QQ away.

Almost all of those are mezzes that if you try to attack again..well they break. Unlike marauders, you can use all your defensive CD's and secure a win or go invis and deny a win in 1vs1. Either way you win...oh also you got a gap closer and the highest speed boost ability in the game. Also you got the best defensives in the game...that includes better than any tank spec.

Also the highest damage output in PVP.
So you get it all on both fronts...gee I wonder why there are so many sents/marauders in pvp now....

Yea I'm still winning...it's not even hard anymore. You even have to list the same things more than twice.

TridusSWTOR's Avatar


TridusSWTOR
11.13.2012 , 01:04 PM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TBH, the OP has stated his intention (however effective) was to shed light on the abilities of the marauder rather than to simply QQ. Seeing as you have hijacked his thread at this point for a mind-numbing recount of every ability that marauders have, while ignoring the abilities that other classes possess as well, I would kindly ask that you move your argument to another thread (lord knows there aren't enough nerf mara threads going on for you to find one). Should you have some input as to how you would suggest maras be changed to improve the state of the game based on the abilities as mentioned in the OP or how other classes may be changed to be brought more in line, feel free to continue posting and we can have a constructive discussion on the topic.

So far all I've gotten from your numerous posts is that mara DCDs are too much and other classes that have similar abilities are fine because they don't have as many. Please tell me (anyone can feel free to help out):
1) What you would change or take away from the toolbox of the marauder to balance the PVP game out?
2) Why do you feel the change is necesssary?
3) Would this change make the AC unusable in PVP or how could the class counteract the nerf to continue being a viable AC?

If you are able to provide a response including the above parts, then I believe you can open a constructive dialogue with people who understand the class the best.
When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.
Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.

Helig's Avatar


Helig
11.13.2012 , 01:30 PM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.
Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.
As I recall, the main complaint was getting killed by a Marauder while he has UR on (frustration of not being able to kill them before he's healed up seems to be a secondary concern). Why not just reduce damage done under the effects of UR by 50% and call it a day? Or give all attacks - Force and melee a far 50-70% accuracy penalty?

I like stealth the way it is. It's the only way to get a crack at a good sniper.
"I'm not *giving* him cake, I'm *assaulting* him with cake!" - Pinkamena Diane Pie

Vacarius's Avatar


Vacarius
11.13.2012 , 01:37 PM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
Almost all of those are mezzes that if you try to attack again..well they break. Unlike marauders, you can use all your defensive CD's and secure a win or go invis and deny a win in 1vs1. Either way you win...oh also you got a gap closer and the highest speed boost ability in the game. Also you got the best defensives in the game...that includes better than any tank spec.

Also the highest damage output in PVP.
So you get it all on both fronts...gee I wonder why there are so many sents/marauders in pvp now....

Yea I'm still winning...it's not even hard anymore. You even have to list the same things more than twice.
Er, who cares if someone can win 1v1s? If you're in a 1v1 you're not playing objectives (unless guarding/soloing a point).

Powertechs still have the highest damage output in PvP and are arguably the easiest dps class to play, strange that this is not mentioned. To be honest, I think the real reason marauders are played so much are the dual lightsabers, the single pistol for pts isn't as exciting.

I personally love predation, it opens up so many possiblities in pvp. Ideally there would be more utility abilities like it.

I don't understand this fuss about healing during UD. If a healer stops healing everyone to burst a mara back up, he cannot heal anyone else well in that time. and if he's a op or merc, could drop into a lower energy band and gimp himself until it regenerates. Note that if we're talking about balance in high level pvp, my heal with be interupted by the dps assigned to shut me down, so I'll only be able to use a hot and my minor heal. Not really that intimidating Without the healing it becomes a 4 second life extender as straight afterwards you will die, ruining it as a defensive cooldown (1v1s are irrelevant in serious pvp). I wil revise my opinion if you can prove this will improve balance (godmode QQ is not a reasoned argument).

Edit: Someone said marauders should be used as the template for class balance, I'd agree with this. They have 3 viable specs, require good use of abilities to do well and offer a good utility ability. They're fun to play and other classes should be the same.

I did forget to take account of surgical probe spam in my initial statements, which will most likely be the heal used. Assuming 40% crit for an operative healer, he would able to get 2 probes off (GCD of 1.5 seconds x 2 = 3 -will get a third off half a second later assuming mara survives the 0.5 seconds) there would be 1 crit and 1 standard heal. This means a total healing of about 5.5k (3.5k crit, 2k normal) with 2k more soon after. This equates to about a quarter of the marauder's health and is operative only, proving with skilled players UD is less of a concern (with no interupts would be about 10k -two injections one crit one normal).
Seikier - Operative Healer
Officer of Nightmare Council

Jadescythe's Avatar


Jadescythe
11.13.2012 , 02:14 PM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by TridusSWTOR View Post
When UR is up, marauders cannot receive any healing.
Remove the stealth part of the aggro dump marauders get but keep the damage reduction and the speed boost if talented.

That's all it would take to fix it. I give you props for actually making a reasonable post.
I don't think removing healing during UR would have quite the impact that many players expect it would. Theoretically, if the mara/sent has a pocket healer that can burst heal them during UR, they should be your target first and the mara/sent no longer has heals. Medpacks would be the exception, but if UR didn't allow for healing, they would just use it prior to UR for the same effect. It's similar to those who argued against reducing sorc's stun down to 10 meters. If you are using your stun correctly (as an escape mechanism or gap creator) then 10 meters is plenty of range and the nerf only affects those who are not using it correctly. I have no problems with making the suggestion you have, but it will only benefit those players who don't focus on the healers first (coming from a healers perspective no less).

As for force camo, it is both highly overrated by other classes and underrated by mara/sents. It is the only way to avoid being rooted to death by snipers without using CC breaker on it. Every other class (aside from jugg/guardian and this is their biggest problem) has abilities that can continue to be used throughout the duration of a root from outside of 10 meters. I'm not saying it is an ideal rotation, but all other classes can do some damage while rooted and at distance. It is an integral part of the kite/antikite dynamic in place at the moment.

That being said, this is not an ability in comparison to what is given to actual stealth classes. It is short duration and they continue taking damage from DoTs as well as any AOEs in the area, so it can't be utilized at the very end right before death. I don't believe this ability can be removed, but I do feel it is available too frequently. It's currently (could be wrong, so correct me if I am) at a 45 sec CD, and could probably increase by about 30 seconds. On my mid level mara, I feel like it is available for use in every fight and I don't think that is necessary.
I have opinions and stuff

Phasersablaze's Avatar


Phasersablaze
11.13.2012 , 02:30 PM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Vacarius View Post

Edit: Someone said marauders should be used as the template for class balance, I'd agree with this. They have 3 viable specs, require good use of abilities to do well and offer a good utility ability. They're fun to play and other classes should be the same.
I said it (I'm the thread starter). Marauders would be a very good class to balance around.

And I didn't mention PT Pyros because they would be a very poor class to use as a blueprint. When played well they CAN have a lot of utility (taunt, AE CC, Grapple) but as a general rule they are pretty clunky and really only do well because of their incredible burst DPS ability. And when I say clunky I mean that they are not very mobile, and don't have a lot of tools to use. Basically without their massive burst DPS they would be another vanilla DPS class with poor mobility. You might be able to make the AP mobility argument, but they have to sacrifice a lot of burst capability for that.

BoDiE's Avatar


BoDiE
11.13.2012 , 02:31 PM | #110
A lot of bluster from the maras.
So when can we expect a nerf? 6.6k derps, cloak when you have them down to no health, cc immunity, can get off about 15k of damage during their invulnerability ability, oh and a speed buff. If there was open world pvp they wouldn't be looked at but in warzones where every noob and his dog has one, it iis.

Can't wait for the nerf.
epicfail
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