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this "original story" might not even mess with the current EU

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
this "original story" might not even mess with the current EU

Timarick's Avatar


Timarick
11.09.2012 , 11:20 PM | #131
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes but as Captain_Zone pointed out, and I didn't realise this, if stuff is labeled N-Canon it would be taken of the shelves and those sales would be lost regardless of the demand



Just want to address some of the points you made here that I didn't before because it was rushed. FIrstly I have no contempt for the minority EU fans at all, and my blatant 'no one cares' point was made because people weren't taking the time to read the full argument so I put in a simpler form. Of course its a hyperbole, and not true, its just a summary of what I was saying. That these EU fans are the minority, I have no contempt for them, I simply realise Disney has little care for them, they wan't to appease the main fan base, not dance around the EU.

As for you alternative, I have to say I don't like it at all, I really don't. Alternative universes would simply render the star wars story null and void, because in a sense its not the true story, just a version I like. I see it as a slippery slope, once Disney does it, who else will follow? The canon system will become more and more obsolete, the amount of alternate universes will escalate, and if they don't, the current ones will grow, until their are entirely different versions of the star wars story, when their should only be one. Alternate universes should be what they are now, I bit of fun. This would lead to a Marvel-scale predicament, with rubbish about alternate universes inside alternate universes. In an extreme way, it would be the death of the Star Wars I fell in love with, I'm willing to sacrifice some EU to maintain what we already have.

Disney, and George Lucas, would probably (I'm not saying they would) agree with me here. I know Lucas had little respect for post-ROTJ, such as the Mara Jade and Palpatine arcs, and I understand why - they were messing with the characters he had created and envisaged, and messing with his story. To them the movies take precedence, and if the EU gets in the way, it should step aside.

The solution? Of course sending a bulldozer through the EU isn't the solution. Disney realise that despite these fans being a small minority, they can be very loud, they don't want bad press, and they want to make as much revenue as possible. I highly doubt however they will put much thought into keeping the post-ROTJ universe in tact, simply because its so small and rather messy. The safest bet would be to bypass the good stuff, of course what is good is a matter of opinion. I get the feeling that the Thrawn Trilogy is loved by all post-ROTJ fans, and the best of the bunch. Someone on another thread also pointed out that the Kyle Katarn arc, that encompasses comics and games will also be affected, and they are also much loved. But the NJO order, is disliked by many, and from what I can gather is farfetched in places and a little messy. I wouldn't put in past disney if they wiped this area clean, and I wouldn't disagree with them. The only solution I see is if they carve out a section of the NJO era for their film, render that N-Canon and the N-Canon the other material it will effect. And fans will just have to deal with that.

But this still doesn't solve the problem of revenue does it? Comics will be pulled off the shelves never to be seen again, and bad press will be stirred up by angry fans. But this can be solved. For won't the films open up an entirely new playground for EU writers to dive into? An opportunity to start again, to makes things better? Won't the market be flooded not only with new EU to replace the old, but new toys, games, novels etcera etcera - the income will be massive, and will totally make up for their losses and more.

As you can see this move will solve a lot of problems. But will it placate the fans? I don't know. I get the feeling you are one of these fans, whether you like NJO or not I can't say. But what would you think, and anyone else who reads post-NJO about new EU, replacing the old? And perhaps even the death (and rebirth) of the NJO era?
I was the guy who pointed out the Kyle Katarn stuff being loved as well as the early Post-ROTJ stuff, but the NJO sucking. They could completely edit that and what comes after it, like Legacy of the Force and Fate of the Jedi (which are WELL-received by fans UNLIKE NJO) would not only be unaffected, but unchanged. If I, a common fan of Star Wars, thought of this, those at Lucasfilm (I can't stress enough, LUCASFILM IS STILL MAKING STAR WARS! They're just on Disney's payroll and make them money.) will have already thought about it and mulled it over 10 000 times and be well on the way to figuring out a way how to not only keep the small but VERY vocal audience appeased, but also respect the hard work these creators put into their work, but still make a movie that isn't bogged down by it. The EU will always be present, and everyone knows this whether they like it or not, but like Clone Wars, you need to do what best fits the story first, and continuity second. I sincerely doubt, being a MASSIVE EU fan myself, they will neglect it, there's tons of material there to draw on, but I doubt they will BIND themselves to it.

It's a delicate balance, one an entire team of people far smarter than any of us, are trying to walk with every step.

Nataph's Avatar


Nataph
11.10.2012 , 10:08 AM | #132
From what I have read, Michael Arndt is a big star wars fan and will be writing the screenplay. This tells me he will somewhat stay within the realm of both EU and the movies. It isn’t very hard to stay within both realms if you have a good writer. Many here have said Disney wouldn’t care to alienate fans if they decided to change up but I disagree not only for the fans but what of the authors of the EU?

For example, the clone wars Mandalorian plot, which I thought was terrible, changed the way we all read of what the mandalorians were and how they lived. This alienated author Karen Traviss who I think is a very good writer for both the Mandalore and the 501’st military clone wars series. She also wrote the first The Clone wars movie but now she will no longer work with Star Wars because of those three poorly written episodes. She mentioned this in a published interview and an email to me. If they decided to change up a big portion of EU they can lose other very good authors. In 2013, a new 9 book series will be coming out with the beginning of Crucible by Troy Denning. There is much to be lost if they did. And before people say even if they lost all those authors, there are 100 more authors who could take their place, all I would say is, if you read Star wars history or other books and movies you realize good writing is hard to find.

With this, it would not be very hard to stay in line. You wouldn’t even need to bring EU characters on the screen but merely their mention. Such as Obi-wan did when he mentioned General Vos in ROTS.

Example..
Leia.. hey luke where is mara?
Luke.. she is out on a mission.

There EU catastrophe averted and kept in line. A good writer should do this without much effort.
The clone wars cartoons on the other hand have been deteriorating in storyline. I mean how many same wars for different planets with the same two people can you have? And the ratings have been proof with the 1st season hitting 4million while last season couldn’t hit 2 million. That’s bad writing.

I do not mind minor changes but not big changes. And yes the fans do matter. People can watch the movies but I watched all the movies a few times at the theater… I bought their clone wars figures/galactic heroes/jedi force figures, their hardcover books, and played SWtor loyally and have already starting getting my two young boys into Star wars. Its about the overall money, not just the movies.
The Bastion

55's Ixzaran Aar'siah Hâdassah Hada'ssah Nashata Nataph Sashasa

sstanks's Avatar


sstanks
11.11.2012 , 01:25 PM | #133
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
Dude, you agree with him and he wants to start an argument with you. Now you know what I had to put up with until I put him on Ignore.

Seriously, the post-RotJ ExU Novels, comics, and games make LucasArts about 20 - 50 mill per year. Post-RotJ accounts for around 5 - 20 mill. They wouldn't jeopardize that kind of revenue by declaring all of it N-Canon. There is a reason why declaring EVERYTHING in an entire storyline that takes place over several novels or comics as N-Canon is a last resort. When such a thing occurs, all prints of those novels and comics that aren't already in circulation are pulled from shelves in a recall. Leland Chee takes everything about the retcon into account before he makes that decision, and tries to find ways to declare some elements S-Canon before anything gets pulled. Novels and Comics supplemented the income of George and his family. Now they'll supplement Disney's bottom line. The recalls MIGHT have laxed since I saw it last, but as of 2009, that was how the procedure went. I watched my local comic book shop owner pull dozens of issues off the wall and box them up to send back to the warehouse, thanks to an email they got from Dark Horse, which LL had sent to them. When I asked him about it, he said they'd been recalled because it wasn't in Star Wars anymore. That was before I learned more about Canon and how seriously LucasArts takes it. At the time, I didn't think much of it because it didn't affect the Knights of the Old Republic series I was collecting.
no star wars book has ever been pulled off the shelf for being made non canon.

http://www.amazon.com/Splinter-Minds...+the+minds+eye

Splinter of the Minds Eye was one of the first book to be made non canon and they are still publishing and selling it.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
11.11.2012 , 04:43 PM | #134
Quote: Originally Posted by sstanks View Post
no star wars book has ever been pulled off the shelf for being made non canon.

http://www.amazon.com/Splinter-Minds...+the+minds+eye

Splinter of the Minds Eye was one of the first book to be made non canon and they are still publishing and selling it.
Actually, the main story in it is C-Canon, still. Most other elements are N or S-Canon, now. Do I need to show how the Canon system works again? Leland Chee does everything in his power to make everything fit, no matter what. It's ONLY when he can't make anything fit that it's deemed N-Canon. For the record, the story takes place between Episodes IV and V in continuity. It's similar to what happened to The Thrawn Trilogy. Some things in that series are S-Canon now, but it's still in print due to the story itself being C-Canon.

Certain elements, such as the Kaiburr Crystal's attributes, are kept as an S-Canon rumor, now.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splin...Mind's_Eye

The only officially sanctioned N-Canon series is the Infinities comic book line. It's a lot like ElseWorlds or What If??? comics.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

Timarick's Avatar


Timarick
11.12.2012 , 04:25 AM | #135
Quote: Originally Posted by Nataph View Post
From what I have read, Michael Arndt is a big star wars fan and will be writing the screenplay. This tells me he will somewhat stay within the realm of both EU and the movies. It isn’t very hard to stay within both realms if you have a good writer. Many here have said Disney wouldn’t care to alienate fans if they decided to change up but I disagree not only for the fans but what of the authors of the EU?

For example, the clone wars Mandalorian plot, which I thought was terrible, changed the way we all read of what the mandalorians were and how they lived. This alienated author Karen Traviss who I think is a very good writer for both the Mandalore and the 501’st military clone wars series. She also wrote the first The Clone wars movie but now she will no longer work with Star Wars because of those three poorly written episodes. She mentioned this in a published interview and an email to me. If they decided to change up a big portion of EU they can lose other very good authors. In 2013, a new 9 book series will be coming out with the beginning of Crucible by Troy Denning. There is much to be lost if they did. And before people say even if they lost all those authors, there are 100 more authors who could take their place, all I would say is, if you read Star wars history or other books and movies you realize good writing is hard to find.

With this, it would not be very hard to stay in line. You wouldn’t even need to bring EU characters on the screen but merely their mention. Such as Obi-wan did when he mentioned General Vos in ROTS.

Example..
Leia.. hey luke where is mara?
Luke.. she is out on a mission.

There EU catastrophe averted and kept in line. A good writer should do this without much effort.
The clone wars cartoons on the other hand have been deteriorating in storyline. I mean how many same wars for different planets with the same two people can you have? And the ratings have been proof with the 1st season hitting 4million while last season couldn’t hit 2 million. That’s bad writing.

I do not mind minor changes but not big changes. And yes the fans do matter. People can watch the movies but I watched all the movies a few times at the theater… I bought their clone wars figures/galactic heroes/jedi force figures, their hardcover books, and played SWtor loyally and have already starting getting my two young boys into Star wars. Its about the overall money, not just the movies.
Poorly written? Then why do I consider it one of my favourite arcs of season 2 aside from the Holocron and Genosis arcs? I personally didn't like the more vagabond elements of the Mandalorians and what the arc did was streamline it. If you watched the special features of Clone Wars Season 2, they discuss this, and the creators were forced to make a compromise with George on how to set up the story to keep as much canon as possible. And they did for the most part, eschewing however the fact that they all looked like a bunch of Boba Fetts and that robbed Boba of his uniqueness when they needed a military society.

I'm the first person to speak for writers rights, and while you hit it over the head that fans matter, not everything written just flat out works for screen, like the vagabond free elements of Mandalorian culture from the comics and novels or what have you.

The rest of my case was made in earlier posts, but I digress.

sstanks's Avatar


sstanks
11.12.2012 , 06:02 AM | #136
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
Actually, the main story in it is C-Canon, still. Most other elements are N or S-Canon, now. Do I need to show how the Canon system works again? Leland Chee does everything in his power to make everything fit, no matter what. It's ONLY when he can't make anything fit that it's deemed N-Canon. For the record, the story takes place between Episodes IV and V in continuity. It's similar to what happened to The Thrawn Trilogy. Some things in that series are S-Canon now, but it's still in print due to the story itself being C-Canon.

Certain elements, such as the Kaiburr Crystal's attributes, are kept as an S-Canon rumor, now.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Splin...Mind's_Eye

The only officially sanctioned N-Canon series is the Infinities comic book line. It's a lot like ElseWorlds or What If??? comics.
like the duel between Vader and Luke in Splinter of the minds eye? That's still canon?

Not that it matters but I proved my point nothing has ever been taken down to it being considered non canon. The old Marvel Comics are still in print and also not canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_...el)#Canonicity
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Omni...rvel+star+wars

Lucas has never pulled any book or comic because it became non canon. Perhaps next time you will be more informed before you spread misinformation.

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
11.12.2012 , 11:42 AM | #137
Quote: Originally Posted by sstanks View Post
like the duel between Vader and Luke in Splinter of the minds eye? That's still canon?

Not that it matters but I proved my point nothing has ever been taken down to it being considered non canon. The old Marvel Comics are still in print and also not canon.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Star_...el)#Canonicity
http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-Omni...rvel+star+wars

Lucas has never pulled any book or comic because it became non canon. Perhaps next time you will be more informed before you spread misinformation.
The old Marvel Star Wars comics are still in print???? Now who's putting out misinformation??? Marvel hasn't made new Star Wars comics for over 20 years now. Some comic book shops buy entire series of comics from customers for maybe 50 cents to a dollar, but those aren't considered new. The N-Canon recalls are on NEW PRODUCTS ONLY, not pre-owned. You need to do your homework, and stop trusting wookieepedia for everything. Look up Darth Malgus on there, and you'll see what I mean. I said that the basic plot/story of Splinter was still C-Canon. Some elements are now S, but that's it. If it's recalled, then THE ENTIRE STORY must be deemed N-Canon, and that never happened with Splinter. If you have issues with that, write to Leland Chee and ask him.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

sstanks's Avatar


sstanks
11.12.2012 , 03:05 PM | #138
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
The old Marvel Star Wars comics are still in print???? Now who's putting out misinformation??? Marvel hasn't made new Star Wars comics for over 20 years now. Some comic book shops buy entire series of comics from customers for maybe 50 cents to a dollar, but those aren't considered new. The N-Canon recalls are on NEW PRODUCTS ONLY, not pre-owned. You need to do your homework, and stop trusting wookieepedia for everything. Look up Darth Malgus on there, and you'll see what I mean. I said that the basic plot/story of Splinter was still C-Canon. Some elements are now S, but that's it. If it's recalled, then THE ENTIRE STORY must be deemed N-Canon, and that never happened with Splinter. If you have issues with that, write to Leland Chee and ask him.
yes they do still print the comics in tradeback form. Did you not look at the amazon link? You can buy a new copy of the Star Wars Marvel comics in tradeback fresh from the printer. When someone adds a link that means they are showing proof or evidence of what they are saying. Its common curtsy to click on it so you dont look foolish.

BTW what was this mythical non canon Star Wars comic that you supposedly saw?

Captain_Zone's Avatar


Captain_Zone
11.12.2012 , 03:46 PM | #139
Quote: Originally Posted by sstanks View Post
yes they do still print the comics in tradeback form. Did you not look at the amazon link? You can buy a new copy of the Star Wars Marvel comics in tradeback fresh from the printer. When someone adds a link that means they are showing proof or evidence of what they are saying. Its common curtsy to click on it so you dont look foolish.

BTW what was this mythical non canon Star Wars comic that you supposedly saw?
If that link is true, then Marvel is either bucking Lucas, since they haven't had a contract since the late 80s, or Disney went over Lucas's head and let them publish it. Disney also owns Marvel, after all. As I've stated before, the N-Canon rules may have changed since I saw the comic being recalled, but I seriously doubted it. With that link, it seems that they've relaxed it a bit, since Disney is now in charge. Or they were given the OK to publish the Marvel stories that aren't considered N-Canon.

The one I saw was later made into an Infinities story arc having to do with Princess Leia becoming Darth Vader's apprentice. It was recalled because it originally came out before the Infinities series was launched.

Now, you might want to drop your condescending tone there, bubba. You want to start an argument for the sake of argument, then I have no qualms about putting you on my ignore list and leaving you there. You're not an expert, since you don't know anything about S-Canon. Just like another guy on here who says he's an "expert", yet doesn't even know how the Canon system works or Leland Chee's role in it.
. OPOD
Shivalka: Darth Baras is quite large, isn't he?
Joran Karn: You, my dear Sith, have just mastered the art of understatement.

sstanks's Avatar


sstanks
11.12.2012 , 05:14 PM | #140
Quote: Originally Posted by Captain_Zone View Post
If that link is true, then Marvel is either bucking Lucas, since they haven't had a contract since the late 80s, or Disney went over Lucas's head and let them publish it. Disney also owns Marvel, after all. As I've stated before, the N-Canon rules may have changed since I saw the comic being recalled, but I seriously doubted it. With that link, it seems that they've relaxed it a bit, since Disney is now in charge. Or they were given the OK to publish the Marvel stories that aren't considered N-Canon.

The one I saw was later made into an Infinities story arc having to do with Princess Leia becoming Darth Vader's apprentice. It was recalled because it originally came out before the Infinities series was launched.

Now, you might want to drop your condescending tone there, bubba. You want to start an argument for the sake of argument, then I have no qualms about putting you on my ignore list and leaving you there. You're not an expert, since you don't know anything about S-Canon. Just like another guy on here who says he's an "expert", yet doesn't even know how the Canon system works or Leland Chee's role in it.
no not at all Lucas knows that Marvel sells the tradebacks. Hell Marvel even occaisonally reprints them and sells them on the stands as "Classic Star Wars" .

They have always done this the Marvel Tradebacks have been in publication for years as well as the comics.

That story was never anything BUT an infinites story. There was never a comic that had that happen that wasn't an infinates. If I am wrong show me what issue that happened in that got pulled from the shelves. What year did this happen in?

I am not an expert nor would I ever claim to be one. However a quick google search can show you are full of it.

I'll check my tone when you actually put correct information up. I'll accept your appology now for being complletely wrong and making false information up.