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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.10.2012 , 09:42 AM | #101
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
The Mandalorians have never governed anything they conquered, really. They go in, kill any resistance and recruit the survivors. If they didn't do this, they wouldn't be able to maintain the war effort. They wouldn't even have been able to go to war if they didn't recruit people. The Mandalorian clans had taken a huge hit after the Exar Kun debacle, so they had to recruit in order to effectively maintain the war effort.

They have never been about conquering. They would take over a planet, take what they want and leave. And if they can't take what they want, they bombard the planet. Look at Serocco. They devastated the planet. If the Corellia uprising happened to the Mandalorians, they would have bombarded the planet.

And I don't think the Republic would be able to retake the Core worlds as effectively as you think. By this time, the Mandalorians would have utterly outnumbered the Republic forces and have the Core Worlds surrounded, slowly moving inward. Once the Mandalorians hit the Core, the Republic would be doomed without the Jedi.
I don't think the people of the Core Worlds are exactly recruitable... have you played Alderaan? Those pompous nobles would never become Mandalorian. Most likely their would be resistance on every world, and lets face it. The option in which the Jedi never intervene is impossible. I mean, when they finally reach Coruscant the Jedi Council aren't just going to meditate and let the Mandorians shoot them in their chamber :P

Sure the Republic would be heavily, heavily outnumbered. But I believe the Mandalorians would fall apart, fighting amongst themselves for the galaxy they have pillaged and wipe each other out - this would make the Republic's job a lot easier.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.10.2012 , 09:48 AM | #102
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I don't think the people of the Core Worlds are exactly recruitable... have you played Alderaan? Those pompous nobles would never become Mandalorian. Most likely their would be resistance on every world, and lets face it. The option in which the Jedi never intervene is impossible. I mean, when they finally reach Coruscant the Jedi Council aren't just going to meditate and let the Mandorians shoot them in their chamber :P

Sure the Republic would be heavily, heavily outnumbered. But I believe the Mandalorians would fall apart, fighting amongst themselves for the galaxy they have pillaged and wipe each other out - this would make the Republic's job a lot easier.
No they aren't. So they Mandalorians would just bombard the world into submission. And this scenario is if the Jedi had completely abstained from the war.

I don't think the Mandalorians would turn on each other. Mandalore the Ultimate was one of the greatest Mandalorian leaders. He united the clans for a single purpose. They were united in the fact that they wanted a glorious victory. They wouldn't jeapordize that.

We also have to remember that Republic morale, numbers and supplies have run low. By the time the Mandalorians hit the Core Worlds, they have taken control of vital trade routes, gained multiple victories against Republic forces, and just the fact that they were in the Core would give a sense of hopelessness to the people.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.10.2012 , 09:53 AM | #103
It never would have mattered, because Dead-Eye Duncan always wins.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.10.2012 , 09:56 AM | #104
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
It never would have mattered, because Dead-Eye Duncan always wins.
I'm betting he accidentally drops a massive bomb disguised as a blaster in Mandalore's ship and blows it to pieces.

Good job Duncan!
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.10.2012 , 10:15 AM | #105
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
No they aren't. So they Mandalorians would just bombard the world into submission. And this scenario is if the Jedi had completely abstained from the war.

I don't think the Mandalorians would turn on each other. Mandalore the Ultimate was one of the greatest Mandalorian leaders. He united the clans for a single purpose. They were united in the fact that they wanted a glorious victory. They wouldn't jeapordize that.

We also have to remember that Republic morale, numbers and supplies have run low. By the time the Mandalorians hit the Core Worlds, they have taken control of vital trade routes, gained multiple victories against Republic forces, and just the fact that they were in the Core would give a sense of hopelessness to the people.
Good point, they were highly fanatic. Whatsmore, at this point no doubt the True Sith would have intervened and taken over.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.10.2012 , 10:23 AM | #106
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Good point, they were highly fanatic. Whatsmore, at this point no doubt the True Sith would have intervened and taken over.
That's actually a good point. I'm sure the Emperor was keeping tabs on the Mandalorians and would started to move in if his minions were doing well. Then we would see the Jedi go to war. This is what they were waiting for, but I don't think the Jedi would have much of a chance once the Sith Empire steps in.
Added Chapter 35 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Necrosaro's Avatar


Necrosaro
11.10.2012 , 10:38 AM | #107
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's actually a good point. I'm sure the Emperor was keeping tabs on the Mandalorians and would started to move in if his minions were doing well. Then we would see the Jedi go to war. This is what they were waiting for, but I don't think the Jedi would have much of a chance once the Sith Empire steps in.
Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.

Rayla_Felana's Avatar


Rayla_Felana
11.10.2012 , 11:02 AM | #108
Quote: Originally Posted by Necrosaro View Post
Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.
You kind of left the Exile out of that, without her, Revan would never have had the strength to fight back against the Emperor.

But yes I agree, KotOR II is well and above almost any other work in the EU, it was a bold move by Avellone to question everything already established previously in Star Wars, but it worked in a way no other work has ever achieved since..

BrandonSM's Avatar


BrandonSM
11.10.2012 , 11:07 AM | #109
Quote: Originally Posted by Necrosaro View Post
Which is why the Jedi philosophy was basically wrong. If they waited until the Sith Empire revealed themselves it would have been way too late to save anything.

This is why essentially Revan was right. DId he bring untold war and destruction to the Republic? Yes he did, is that horrible? Yes it was, however it was only through his actions of delaying the Sith Empire that the Republic survived long enough to rebuild. If he didn't fight the Mandalorians, then turn against the Republic, etc this wouldn't have ever happened. Thus his actions had to happen, this is why I believe that Kotor 2, story is superior to just about all other Star Wars games, there are no real good guys in this story, no good vs evil, it is flawed vs flawed.

Yet the Republic still seems to be loosing to the SE...
Hapan: "This creature has information that could lead us to a woman who has been kidnapped. We will get that information."
Luke: "This woman is a citizen of the New Republic, and if you do not take your hands off her, I will take your hands off you."

OldVengeance's Avatar


OldVengeance
11.10.2012 , 02:28 PM | #110
In the first Kotor game, there is a argument between Carth and Canderous about if the Mandalorians conquered the Republic would they have been able to hold it. Canderous says "Maybe. We'll never know." He seems to imply they would have tried.

Revan only delayed the Sith Empire after he accelerated it's return. If his goal was to strengthen the Republic by going to war he not only failed, he failed monumentally. The Republic and Jedi were left in ruins because of his actions. Much worse than they would have been if the Mandalorian Wars had gone on longer. That's why he only managed to clean up his own mess in Kotor 1 and Revan, the novel. And that's why he wrong to go to war. By the time Malachor V rolled around, Revan was already fallen to the darkside. It's why he activated the Mass Shadow Generator in the first place. He had methods to turn Jedi to the darkside to serve him, but the Mass Shadow Generator wasn't it. Every Jedi except the Exile was killed at Malachor V. That was the whole point of why she was special and why Kreia was obsessed with her.

The problem with Revan's motive is that after Kotor, both games that came after retconned them so his story is disjointed because it kept changing.

In essence it's:
Kotor 1 motives: Conquer the Republic for power.
Kotor 2 motives: Conquer the Republic to make it stronger under his rule (and power).
Tor motives: Mind controlled to attacked the Republic by the Emperor and he then broke free to did it for himself.

I think Kotor 2 was inferior to most Star Wars stories, for exactly the reason that it isn't good vs evil. Star Wars supposed to be a story about good and evil, by taking that away it basically turned the story into something else. Which wouldn't be a problem if this wasn't supposed to be a Star Wars story.

Nor do I think that Kreia's questioning the rules of Star Wars "worked" at all. All she did says follow you saying things that were either lies, wrong or insane. Nothing she said at all was wise or legitimately profound and I could pretty much safely ignore everything she told me. She was just annoying and useless. In fact I guess she was less than useless since she was the main villain and actively working against you. I came away from every final battle with her in my Kotor 2 playthroughs, happy I was finally rid of her insane ramblings. The fact that the game seemed to insist she was right made it all the more absurd and infuriating. The game seems to tell you she wins in the end because you gave her what she wanted but that makes no sense if I felt like I was ready to forget I ever met her.

She's basically a character that almost resents the fact that she's in a Star Wars story. Right up to the insane notion of hating the force. I knew everything she says was wrong instantly because it was either A) Something that didn't fit with Star Wars or B) Obviously morally unacceptable for non Sith anyway.

And getting back to Revan, it's her bizarre romanticizing of his actions that is my problem. He wasn't a hero to turn to the darkside, he wasn't making a noble sacrifice to conquer the Republic, even to prepare it for the Sith. What he did was villainous, even if he had a noble goal. His actions weren't necessary or heroic. He's just a smarter and more powerful Bengel Morr. He also wanted to destroy the Sith, but wanted to purge the Jedi to do it. A villain with a semi-sympathetic objective is still a villain. The fact that she essentially seems to try to excuse his actions makes me even more dismissive of both of them.