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Let the Jedi use his light saber

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Let the Jedi use his light saber

Ycoga's Avatar


Ycoga
11.09.2012 , 05:51 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
Its absolutely not about DMG output : )
Quote:
No, absolutely not. It's all about removing a restriction that only Sages/Sorcerers have, causing the main stat to not increase all of their attacks but only Force attacks (they are the only ones who don't have a main stat that increase two categories of damage).
What is it then?
'Pre-2.0 PvP... The gear gap was too big and some players became non-contributors quickly because of the gear gap. It wasn’t fun for the majority of players' - Alex Modny

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.09.2012 , 06:12 AM | #22
In fact, it will increase their melee damage output for sure, but melee abilities will still be out of damaging rotations which will still be 100% Force powers, (because their melee damage output will still be low* and it'd need to take unnecessary risks), meaning that the overall DPS of the class will remain unchanged.

So does it increase their damage output ? Yes and no, it depends from the point of view.
Looking at melee abilities only, yes.
Looking at the AC in its globality, no.

* : low but acceptable, Saber Strike would be comparable to a Scoundrel's Flurry of Shots without the range

Prettyevilish's Avatar


Prettyevilish
11.09.2012 , 06:15 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
"like bubbles, heals, a free self heal, massive aoes"
free self heal - all classes have it in different way balanced to there resistance, scoundrel is the winer of this ability, some classes should use skill tree for it, warriors and knight are lacking in it a bit but globally the Sage's 30 sec cool-down small emergency heal is not game breaking in my eyes.
bubble - if they would not have it, the class would be unplayable due to light armor with no armor buff (ok 10 % at skill tree for a few sec lol) no shield chance and no other resistance skills what all classes have
massive aoes - all classes have there massive aoes (knights, warriors lacking) if I play my other classes in WS (all 50) and I get to Sage's earth quake I don't even mind lol if my position is serves my team, I just stay there , ) When Sage sorc starts to cast dot's on me, thats the only issue what makes me panic... I panic as well from the aoes of imp agent, smuggler, trooper and bounty hunter. Nothing game breaking here..

"It's not going to change anytime soon as it would require a complete rebalance of all the skills to prevent sages being op"
Sage/Sorc has no skill to re-balance, what connected to melee hit, theres zero skill like that , )
It would allow the sage to use Double Strike and Saber Strike in pve for fun and can be landed this skills in pvp for the lol if she/he knows well, that the situation don't needs the AD's massive skills. If my suggestion goes live and Sage/Sarce would queue for operation, HM FP... like a dps and would not start to use here/his main skills what are supported by the AD's skill tree but Double Strike and Saber Strike, he/she would be kicked quite fast , )

"As all they would have to do is go stand in melee range using all their normal abilities + melee fillers."
When(just one example) TK has no cool-down + its a 30m skill + its regenerate my force way the hell I would want to stand in melee range in light armor, with no shield, with a bobble what disable after the first hit?

My suggestion is not game breaking, don't needs weeks of scripting to disturb the devs work, its would handle a frustration, that a jedi class in an mmo based on SW can't use its saber.

Lets see it from the other side for a sec , )
(just an example for one AD class)
Vanguard has high end armor, great resistance, shield, so he can go close to melee range! Lets nerf its ranged bonus! Now you have a Trooper in an mmo based on SW who can live over of course and its absolutely viable but can't take down even a butterfly with his ranged weapon, but he just carry it, lets say for defense or just to show it lol
So a Trooper without range support? Do you like it? Would you make a suggestion on the forum, that " pardon me, but can we maybe handle this issue.." ? , )
Where is the gunslinger's self-heal?

Also, what you quoted in no way said the self-heal was game breaking, it was saying that adding what you want on top of what they already have would be game breaking.

Comparing the sage/sorc to a trooper is also beyond half-butted, since the trooper is a ranged class on BOTH of his advanced classes.

However, we DO see scoundrels who primarily use melee attacks (the most they use their pistol for is to pistol whip people), and I don't see them QQing that they need buffs to their ranged attacks so they can use the iconic smuggler gun more often. They CHOSE to be a melee scoundrel and they deal with that choice (or re-roll/re-spec).

Sages/Sorcs do not use their lightsabers, get over it. They are a ranged class, not a melee class. If you want to play melee DPS you roll a shadow/assassin.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.09.2012 , 11:21 AM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Ycoga View Post
What is it then?
If Sage/Sorc will be able to use there willpower bonus for melee dmg bonus (like all classes do with there main attribute and class roll pair (force-melee, ranged-tech) the 2 base melee skills what he would be able to use will never bring better dmg outcome compared to there main skills.
It would do just one thing, make this two melee ability viable and using it for fun.
This is all its about.
If you have more specific questions and you still confused please take your time and ask : )

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.09.2012 , 11:45 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Prettyevilish View Post
Where is the gunslinger's self-heal?

Also, what you quoted in no way said the self-heal was game breaking, it was saying that adding what you want on top of what they already have would be game breaking.

Comparing the sage/sorc to a trooper is also beyond half-butted, since the trooper is a ranged class on BOTH of his advanced classes.

However, we DO see scoundrels who primarily use melee attacks (the most they use their pistol for is to pistol whip people), and I don't see them QQing that they need buffs to their ranged attacks so they can use the iconic smuggler gun more often. They CHOSE to be a melee scoundrel and they deal with that choice (or re-roll/re-spec).

Sages/Sorcs do not use their lightsabers, get over it. They are a ranged class, not a melee class. If you want to play melee DPS you roll a shadow/assassin.
True, gunsliger lacking in self heal. I suggest go and make a thread about it if its frustrating you and you think that it disturbs the lore of SW till you play the class.

You mentioning Scoundrel,
So I have a lvl 50 scoundrel I like it so much, from the reason that he can use a bunch of skills and can handle almost all situation:
Can heal self like no other class, can snake and even HIPS! Most mobil class. Greatest and strongest aoe skill, can involve in close combat fight till if he lacking in resistance a bit, he can use free insta heal after every even whip attack. He has aoe stun and its the longest stun in game. He has ranged dps, melee dps and heal tree (very playful what is a good point in an mmo, )) And if it needed he goes to cover and has incredible great long range ability bar (a new skill bar!!! I like this one the most , )) He can use two 30m range grenade and both aoe and in very short cool-down . Ah and did I mentioned, that all of his long range, short range, aoe, heal... and all super wide ability bar is supported by his main atribute? : )
Only one assumption... could it be, that this are the reasons way they don't qq'ing?
By the way, do you see any one QQ'ing here? I made a suggestion, a suggestion what is strange that almost no one mentioning (ok in game chat I saw a lot of jokes, that Sage/Sorc has no light saber, they have a walking stick , ))
And don't misunderstood me its not a qq for better dmg, I have good dmg with my Sage (of course everything could be better , )) I just ask for a change, what all classes has and I can go further, this change won't be game breaking, but if it stays like that its simply SW lore breaking.

Prettyevilish's Avatar


Prettyevilish
11.09.2012 , 11:43 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by LuciferinDNA View Post
True, gunsliger lacking in self heal. I suggest go and make a thread about it if its frustrating you and you think that it disturbs the lore of SW till you play the class.

You mentioning Scoundrel,
So I have a lvl 50 scoundrel I like it so much, from the reason that he can use a bunch of skills and can handle almost all situation:
Can heal self like no other class, can snake and even HIPS! Most mobil class. Greatest and strongest aoe skill, can involve in close combat fight till if he lacking in resistance a bit, he can use free insta heal after every even whip attack. He has aoe stun and its the longest stun in game. He has ranged dps, melee dps and heal tree (very playful what is a good point in an mmo, )) And if it needed he goes to cover and has incredible great long range ability bar (a new skill bar!!! I like this one the most , )) He can use two 30m range grenade and both aoe and in very short cool-down . Ah and did I mentioned, that all of his long range, short range, aoe, heal... and all super wide ability bar is supported by his main atribute? : )
Only one assumption... could it be, that this are the reasons way they don't qq'ing?
By the way, do you see any one QQ'ing here? I made a suggestion, a suggestion what is strange that almost no one mentioning (ok in game chat I saw a lot of jokes, that Sage/Sorc has no light saber, they have a walking stick , ))
And don't misunderstood me its not a qq for better dmg, I have good dmg with my Sage (of course everything could be better , )) I just ask for a change, what all classes has and I can go further, this change won't be game breaking, but if it stays like that its simply SW lore breaking.
I think there is a... language barrier making this 'discussion' more difficult to have, because you keep misunderstanding what others are saying. I did not suggest gunslinger lacking a self-heat was a nuisance or needed thing, I stated that to point out a flaw in your argument that everyone has a self-heal in one way or another and thus the sage having one is just par for the course.

And yes, you are QQing as you continue to whine about not being able to use melee abilities - which would overpower the class - when it's clearly pointed out why you CANNOT have what you are asking for without seriously, and completely, rebalancing the entire class - not to mention angering people who chose sage so that they could be a ranged DPS rather than a melee one. Whether your INTENTION is to get additional damage or not, what you are suggesting WOULD result in that end.

Comparing the sage DPS tree to ALL of the scoundrel trees and skills is NOT an even comparison. The scoundrels who roll melee are almost completely melee (unless they are a hybrid or respec, which is a whole nother ballgame). Other melee classes also have a few ranged attacks (just as the sage already has melee attacks) so your argument yet again falls completely flat.

Simplest answer is STILL, roll an assassin/shadow if you want to use your lightsaber as a consular/inquisitor, because you are NOT going to get a melee buff on the sage/sorc for a myriad of reasons. Your suggestion to just have it be viable 'for fun' only results in a higher damage output from sages (because those 'for fun' attacks can still be used in 'for serious' ways). Again, whether that's your intention or not, it is what it would result in without completely redoing the class from the ground up for balance issues.

By the way, I PLAY a sage and my questing partner and I regularly joke that her lightsaber is actually a flashlight that she just uses to blind people. We also celebrate when I get a chance to actually hit something with it. We are well aware that the sage carrying a lightsaber is for show; neither of us has a problem with that and if we did, I'd re-roll as a shadow.

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.10.2012 , 04:18 AM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by toyfanatic View Post
As a shadow I ask why?
When people spam fleet and ask shadow or sage - I say sage. Why use the saber other than for deflection? Sage is a jedi /wizard class. As the otherside of the spectrum I wish I could cause ruin from affar. But I am perfectly happy being melee, so why do you not want to be ranged? OP with your post about boosting saber damage by using the willpower modifier it would make the class some what unbalanced. The other consular AC doesn't have skills that boost their willpower- the ones in the skill tree I am refering too. Also their willpower is significantly lower than yours, to trade they use higher base weapon damage to offset the difference.
If there was a re-ajustment to add this , it might make the sage require a major class overhaul. The low armour raiting is unusable for melee, the inspiration for the class was palpatine. Who always fought from afar. You do know that shadow has 1/5 or 1/6th of your mana? Why should you get their best asset when they don't get yours?
So why do I prefer sage then? It was a pain to be married to a healer pet leveling till 50. I enjoy the sages versitility more as I lvl one.
Nonsense. A sorc has what two abilities, thrash and sabre strike, no talents to increase the damage or crit chance of them either. It would not make them OP in any way, because sorcs/sages don't want to be in melee range, but it at least means they can do a hit or two if rooted etc before trying to escape, because competent melee will interrupt their casts.

As for the damage, it's meh, and only sorcs/sages are the advanced class that don't benefit from main stat to weapon damage.

As a shadow you benefit not only from willpower but strength to a lesser degree too, so tell me how that is fair? I'd also point out, since you seem oblivious to many things about reality in this game, that sorc/sage dps is the lowest there is, even with 6% to willpower. So before making your unfounded suggestions that "oh noes, sages will become so uber", you might want to try looking at the facts.

But since you want to quote lore, how about the fact that Jedi/Sith are trained to use lightsabres, so your point about Palpatine is moot, but you know he seemed pretty capable with his sabre when fighitng Yoda in case you forgot. In ToR sabres are basically glorified glowing stat-sticks for sages/sorcs... awesome, and there isn't one good reason why this should be so (and you haven't posted cogent argument as to why it shouldn't change).

Chemic_al's Avatar


Chemic_al
11.10.2012 , 04:28 AM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Prettyevilish View Post
I think there is a... language barrier making this 'discussion' more difficult to have, because you keep misunderstanding what others are saying. I did not suggest gunslinger lacking a self-heat was a nuisance or needed thing, I stated that to point out a flaw in your argument that everyone has a self-heal in one way or another and thus the sage having one is just par for the course.

And yes, you are QQing as you continue to whine about not being able to use melee abilities - which would overpower the class - when it's clearly pointed out why you CANNOT have what you are asking for without seriously, and completely, rebalancing the entire class - not to mention angering people who chose sage so that they could be a ranged DPS rather than a melee one. Whether your INTENTION is to get additional damage or not, what you are suggesting WOULD result in that end.

Comparing the sage DPS tree to ALL of the scoundrel trees and skills is NOT an even comparison. The scoundrels who roll melee are almost completely melee (unless they are a hybrid or respec, which is a whole nother ballgame). Other melee classes also have a few ranged attacks (just as the sage already has melee attacks) so your argument yet again falls completely flat.

Simplest answer is STILL, roll an assassin/shadow if you want to use your lightsaber as a consular/inquisitor, because you are NOT going to get a melee buff on the sage/sorc for a myriad of reasons. Your suggestion to just have it be viable 'for fun' only results in a higher damage output from sages (because those 'for fun' attacks can still be used in 'for serious' ways). Again, whether that's your intention or not, it is what it would result in without completely redoing the class from the ground up for balance issues.

By the way, I PLAY a sage and my questing partner and I regularly joke that her lightsaber is actually a flashlight that she just uses to blind people. We also celebrate when I get a chance to actually hit something with it. We are well aware that the sage carrying a lightsaber is for show; neither of us has a problem with that and if we did, I'd re-roll as a shadow.
What utter rot. You seem to be oblivious that whether the other advanced classes are range or melee, they will get mainstat bonus to ALL their attacks. If they are ranged they get their bonus on melee and vice/versa. Sorcs/Sages do not, and if you think just because they get willpower to melee attacks it would make them OP and require rebalancing, then you are clueless about Sages and Sorcs and class balance in general.

LuciferinDNA's Avatar


LuciferinDNA
11.10.2012 , 07:47 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Prettyevilish View Post
I think there is a... language barrier making this 'discussion' more difficult to have, because you keep misunderstanding what others are saying. I did not suggest gunslinger lacking a self-heat was a nuisance or needed thing, I stated that to point out a flaw in your argument that everyone has a self-heal in one way or another and thus the sage having one is just par for the course.

And yes, you are QQing as you continue to whine about not being able to use melee abilities - which would overpower the class - when it's clearly pointed out why you CANNOT have what you are asking for without seriously, and completely, rebalancing the entire class - not to mention angering people who chose sage so that they could be a ranged DPS rather than a melee one. Whether your INTENTION is to get additional damage or not, what you are suggesting WOULD result in that end.

Comparing the sage DPS tree to ALL of the scoundrel trees and skills is NOT an even comparison. The scoundrels who roll melee are almost completely melee (unless they are a hybrid or respec, which is a whole nother ballgame). Other melee classes also have a few ranged attacks (just as the sage already has melee attacks) so your argument yet again falls completely flat.

Simplest answer is STILL, roll an assassin/shadow if you want to use your lightsaber as a consular/inquisitor, because you are NOT going to get a melee buff on the sage/sorc for a myriad of reasons. Your suggestion to just have it be viable 'for fun' only results in a higher damage output from sages (because those 'for fun' attacks can still be used in 'for serious' ways). Again, whether that's your intention or not, it is what it would result in without completely redoing the class from the ground up for balance issues.

By the way, I PLAY a sage and my questing partner and I regularly joke that her lightsaber is actually a flashlight that she just uses to blind people. We also celebrate when I get a chance to actually hit something with it. We are well aware that the sage carrying a lightsaber is for show; neither of us has a problem with that and if we did, I'd re-roll as a shadow.
QQing and whine in my eyes is not the same as to make a suggestion and with logical reasoning standing next to it.
If you play a sage, you should know well, that even if TK would be disturbed, even then its better to cast it for the first-second ticks + force regen + presence of mind + even tidal force (if we talk about dps), then land a double strike what channels for 2 sec even if Sage/Sorce would get the willpower bonus when it has zero support from the skill tree. Its impossible to compare this things! : )

I will talk about pvp this time, because its clear like sky that even with my suggestion if a Sage/Sorc would go for melee in OPs, HM FP's the question from the team " What the hell are you doing? You root our healer non stop! " would be reasonable.
So in player vs player situation if any class in the game cannot handle a melee attack from a Sage/Sorc with risen bonus melee dmg by there willpower, then the whole game should be rebalanced. But from the ground. But I think all of us could agree that this assumption is nonsense , )

You mentioned, that you have a Sage, ok I believe it , ) But one thing is sure, your Sage is not lvl 50 and till I'm sure, that you never wanna use your Sage like a main char, its pointless persuading you with any logical reason coz you are simply lobby against this AD class : )

Altheran's Avatar


Altheran
11.10.2012 , 08:20 AM | #30
I asked my bro to give me the stats of his Sorcerer (who have a little more gear than my Shadow) in order to do a comparaison between my Shadow's melee Bonus and his, if he would have his Willpower working like any other classes :

Sorcerer : (Full BM + WH MainHand/OffHand/Gloves/Boots)
  • Willpower : 1417
  • Power : 284
  • Weapon : 324 - 486
Melee bonus : 672.72 - 834.72 (hypotetical)

Shadow : (Full BM + WH MainHand/OffHand - Recruit#2 implants)
  • Willpower : 1313
  • Power : 248
  • Weapon : 389 - 584
Melee bonus : 708.64 - 903.64

Melee bonuses are calculated with only Cons/Inq buff giving +5% to Willpower. We can see that a Sorcerer with 9%-bonus to Willpower will always be unable to outperform a Shadow in the melee department.