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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 02:46 PM | #61
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
That's a very good point. But haven't the Jedi fought other wars without falling to the emotions around them?

But I agree, the Jedi should have entered the war as generals and advisors, with a few Jedi sprinkled in there to provide leadership on the front lines (only the wiser Jedi would do this). Would you agree that this is likely the best course of action?

Yes, it's possible that Revan would still turn to the darkside (but very unlikely), but Revan wouldn't be able to turn all his followers to the darkside because he wouldn't have any followers. If anyone fell to the darkside, it would have been a few individuals, no entire armies. Don't forget the soldiers. They would'nt have turned either because of the support of the Jedi.
Well let's look at the other wars.

Wars with the Sith- The Jedi fight the Sith in the Force, Light versus Dark. In this case, the Jedi resist the darkness that the Sith unleash through their Jedi training. The Jedi of the Old Republic were trained to fight the Sith and the Darkness they unleash. The emotions of the Mandalorians are different as it is a lust for battle. Fighting the Mandalorians gives in to that lust for battle and allowed the Jedi to "receive" the Mandalorians emotions better, corrupting them.

Wars with droids- Droids don't have thoughts that Jedi pick up on, hence no Jedi falling from wars with droids, unless a Sith intervenes.

Wars with mercs- Specifically the Stark Hyperspace War. The enemy the Jedi fought were really just mercs. Hired guns, I believe. To them it was just a job. If they did have any aggressive emotions, the Jedi of this time were trained to master their own emotions and suppress them.

The Mandalorian Wars taught the Jedi to get a better grip on their emotions, to control them better to prevent another Jedi Civil War.

The Jedi should have entered the war as advisors and "back-seat" generals. Commanding the troops from a safe distance, but placing their best Jedi on the front for some extra firepower. By best I mean Jedi that are the most adhered to the Light.

Revan had the Star Forge and his charisma. I don't doubt his ability to recruit people to join him. If he couldn't then he could just use the Star Forge droids as crews for his fleets.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 02:49 PM | #62
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
You dare... (I kid, sort of - heck who am I kidding. DIE!)

I think what people need to realise though, it that while Kreia was a manipulating witch (or as Atton prefers, old scow ) she was capable of telling the truth, and didn't lie for the sake of lying, or because she had a mental disorder (she's not GLaDOS people). She only told lies to further her own agenda. We can categorize what she says into 3 sections: Lies and Manipulations, Cryptic Jedi Speak, Her Beliefs. What she says here slots into the 'Her Beliefs' section, as does all the other stuff she tells you about the Insidious Force, the True Sith and compassion etcera. This stuff is as truth as truth can get. But its subjective, so we can't say for sure. All we know is that Kreia was the most well-versed in the subject of Revan - arguably nobody new about his past better, not even Bastila. No doubt she came to this decision when investigating his past, so we can only assume she found some evidence to support this. But then again, it could have just been an attempt to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong, maybe she's just in denial. We can't say for sure (we can say she believes this to be true, she's not lying it that sense)

But what Kreia says is a springboard, by looking at the facts we can see logic and truth in her argument. You may remember in KOTOR 2 (you may never have got this dialogue), but Mical 'cracks it' if you like. He realises that Revan's conquest was not your run of the mill invasion, but a preservation, as if he was preparing for an invasion. His love for the Republic is also another factor. But we can't say what was going on in his head for sure, or how corrupted by the dark side he had become. And to be honest, the opinion that Revan never 'fell' to the dark side is an opinion, its purely subjective and can't really be backed up by facts, even if Revan believed this was true, you could argue against him, you can just accept it or reject it. SHE WASN'T LYING THOUGH! *tears out hair* Why does no one believe her? *starts sobbing*

Wow, my threads are always looong... (I spend more time here than playing the game) I'm not a ranter people, just got a lot to say.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this, too caught up in my rage. But lets say none of the events surrounding Malachor, the Emperor never happened. But the Mandalorian Wars did and Revan was involved and did the same things. Why would he turn to the dark side? (not rhetorical, I'm genuinely interested) I can't think of a reason he would embrace the Sith and war against the Republic, with no other Sith to turn him.

EDIT AGAIN: I think Malak is the real problem here, not Revan.
Long story short: Kreia lies, but there is small truths embeded within them. She also believes what she is saying which can be very dangerous.

Revan was falling to the Dark Side during the war. Malachor gave him that final push. Say he never went to Malachor. His fall would have been slower. If the Jedi acted quickly, they could stop him. But that could be as successful as trying to get a drug abuser to rehab. They would have to approach Revan carefully as Revan doesn't really care for the Council that much anymore.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 02:53 PM | #63
Quote: Originally Posted by Maaruin View Post
I disagree with you on option two. The Republic wouldn't have been destroyed. The Core Worlds are pretty tough, I doubt the Mandalorians would have conquered them. At some point the Republic would have stopped them.
If the Sith joined the war then, the real threat would be revealed and the Empire would have to fight the Jedi Order at full might.
Option 2 was if the Jedi completely abstained from the war. Not fighting no matter what, even going so far as fleeing the Mandalorians.

The Republic would have lost without the Jedi. When Revan brought the Jedi into the war, Republic recruitment skyrocketed. Morale went through the roof. If Option 2 occurred, the Republic would have lost, eventually. The Mandalorians were employing a brilliant strategy that allowed Mandalore to play the Republic like an instrument.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 03:39 PM | #64
Let me ask you all a few questions.

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?
Do you think his actions during the war were right?
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 04:18 PM | #65
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well let's look at the other wars.

Wars with the Sith- The Jedi fight the Sith in the Force, Light versus Dark. In this case, the Jedi resist the darkness that the Sith unleash through their Jedi training. The Jedi of the Old Republic were trained to fight the Sith and the Darkness they unleash. The emotions of the Mandalorians are different as it is a lust for battle. Fighting the Mandalorians gives in to that lust for battle and allowed the Jedi to "receive" the Mandalorians emotions better, corrupting them.

Wars with droids- Droids don't have thoughts that Jedi pick up on, hence no Jedi falling from wars with droids, unless a Sith intervenes.

Wars with mercs- Specifically the Stark Hyperspace War. The enemy the Jedi fought were really just mercs. Hired guns, I believe. To them it was just a job. If they did have any aggressive emotions, the Jedi of this time were trained to master their own emotions and suppress them.

The Mandalorian Wars taught the Jedi to get a better grip on their emotions, to control them better to prevent another Jedi Civil War.

The Jedi should have entered the war as advisors and "back-seat" generals. Commanding the troops from a safe distance, but placing their best Jedi on the front for some extra firepower. By best I mean Jedi that are the most adhered to the Light.

Revan had the Star Forge and his charisma. I don't doubt his ability to recruit people to join him. If he couldn't then he could just use the Star Forge droids as crews for his fleets.
You make a great point (and I mostly agree with you - especially about the way in which the Jedi should fight) , but I disagree with your comparison between Mandos and Sith.

If a Jedi can avoid being caught up in the emotions of a Sith, then why couldn't they avoid the same with Mandos? I'm not saying that the Mandos and Sith are the same. But they both heavily rely on emotions (and they both share a blood lust).

As for the Clone Wars, you make the point that the enemy of the Jedi were droids. What about the men that the Jedi fought along side? What about the clones? They certainly used emotions (although they didn't rely heavily on them - the fact remains).

But yeah... I would definately say that if you can resist the emotions of a Sith, then you can resist the emotions of a Mando.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 04:20 PM | #66
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Let me ask you all a few questions.

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?
Do you think his actions during the war were right?
Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.
If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

And may I add a question to your list:
Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 04:25 PM | #67
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Long story short: Kreia lies, but there is small truths embeded within them. She also believes what she is saying which can be very dangerous.
Yes she does, but when she speaks the truth you can tell, and if you can't tell just ask yourself - what could she gain from this by lying? What do you mean by the second part? (Are you suggesting that she 'lies' unintentionally, but passes it off as truth because she had such strong belief in her judgement?)

Quote:
Revan was falling to the Dark Side during the war. Malachor gave him that final push. Say he never went to Malachor. His fall would have been slower. If the Jedi acted quickly, they could stop him. But that could be as successful as trying to get a drug abuser to rehab. They would have to approach Revan carefully as Revan doesn't really care for the Council that much anymore.
Hmmm, I agree. I just find it difficult to get my head around Revan turning against the Republic for little reason. But if he viewed the Council as weak, he would have reason too. (I believe they also pushed him to the dark side by pushing out i.e. refusing to listen/understand him. Zez-Kai Ell later admitted as much about Meetra)

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 04:31 PM | #68
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
You make a great point (and I mostly agree with you - especially about the way in which the Jedi should fight) , but I disagree with your comparison between Mandos and Sith.

If a Jedi can avoid being caught up in the emotions of a Sith, then why couldn't they avoid the same with Mandos? I'm not saying that the Mandos and Sith are the same. But they both heavily rely on emotions (and they both share a blood lust).

As for the Clone Wars, you make the point that the enemy of the Jedi were droids. What about the men that the Jedi fought along side? What about the clones? They certainly used emotions (although they didn't rely heavily on them - the fact remains).

But yeah... I would definately say that if you can resist the emotions of a Sith, then you can resist the emotions of a Mando.
You bring up an interesting point. One that I hadn't thought of until after writing that post.

I think bloodlust may have been the wrong word as I look back on it. The Sith have a bloodlust. The Mandalorians were more of a thrill of the battle type. The Jedi pick up on that and, some not all, fall into it. Once that happens, the fall starts and increased exposure to it will result in a fall to the Dark Side unless a wise Jedi Master were to intervene.

As to Jedi fighting Sith. The Jedi are trained to resist the emotions of the Sith. Specifically the Dark ones. When fighting Sith, the Jedi focus the Light to combat the darkness. Calm serenity versus pure aggression.

Hang on! I just thought of something. So when the Jedi fight, they open their minds up to the thoughts, intentions and actions of those around them. This allows them to maneuver around the battle, gracefully dodging blaster fire. This also allows them to pick up on the emotions of their enemies. When they fight Sith, the close their minds off to the emotions of the Sith, acting on instinct.

As to the clones. The Jedi didn't pick up on the emotions of their clone allies. It was unnecessary. This is also one of the reasons that the Jedi were so systematically wiped out by the clones. They didn't attack them with emotion, it was just an order.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 04:35 PM | #69
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Yes, No. The principle was right, the Jedi Council had effectively failed (as in they failed to act on their findings/come up with a plausible and tangible strategy) So Revan felt he had no choice - seeing as the Republic were winning the war I can absolutely 100% see why he rushed to its defence.

However, perhaps he was wrong in certain ways. For example it is not the Jedi way to rush into battle without meditating on the enemy first - thats reckless and foolhardy. But as I was writing this it got me thinking, their are two scenarios here. 1. The Council informed Revan and perhaps other Jedi of their findings, that their was something else behind the war and the danger it posed. Or 2. the Council hid their findings from Revan for whatever reason.
If 1. is the case, then Revan in a sense wasn't rushing into battle without knowledge of his foe, but simply felt it was time to act. If 2. is the case, then the Council acted foolishly and are entirely responsible for Revan's actions. Either way my answer to the first question remains the same, yes.

As for the second, I said no because their is no excuse for atrocities, Revan only proved the Council right and inflicted further pain on the galaxy. I can understand why, but I don't advocate it.

And may I add a question to your list:
Do you think Revan's fall could have been prevented?

^^this is the key question. If the answer is a definite no, then the events that transpired where inevitable.
Fully agree with your answers. As for your counter question.

It depends upon the circumstances. I think the only real way to keep Revan from falling would have been to keep him on a short leash. If we go by my battle strategy, I would place him on a planet to defend it. Say I had a vision of the JCW and saw Revan.

But in the war. I really don't know. Having a Jedi Master with him could work. The best answer here would be to keep him out of battles. In my opinion of course. I'll have to think on this a bit longer.
Added Chapter 64 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 04:38 PM | #70
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Let me ask you all a few questions.

Do you feel Revan was right to go to war?
Do you think his actions during the war were right?
Question 1: Yes. The Republic needed his leadership and the Jedi he brought with him. What he did after he joined the war is a different matter, so I won't get into it.

Question 2: Yes and No. I'm sure early in the war what he did was fine, but as we know, his decision making got bad. He took up aggresive tactics that unnecessarily risked his men's lives. He abandoned worlds for the purpose of victory. This isn't always a bad thing. Sometimes you have to sacrifice lives to save others. But it's my understanding that he did this to the extent to which it was a bad thing. There's a difference between sacrificing people for the purpose of saving others, and then there's sacrificing people for the purpose of total victory. This happens when people get impatient. I believe Revan got impatient.

Don't get me wrong, I think that using aggressive tactics is a good thing. Revan did good in this since. But aventually, he made victory his top priority (saving lives and preserving freedom should always be your top priority). He forgot that he needed freedom for the purpose of saving lives. The man got everything mixed up. But yea, aggressive tactics are good things in and of themselves.