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An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: The Mandalorian Wars

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 11:13 AM | #41
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
The Emperor's plan would've worked regardless, that's all that really mattered.
Has it worked? He hasn't conquered the galaxy yet.

But I definately feel that it mattered.
Just imagine if the Mandos had won their war
or if Darth Revan had won the Jedi Civil War

Wouldn't that change a lot?

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 11:21 AM | #42
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Yeah, I doubt it is as heated as Revan. That's about as controversial as it gets.

But I feel that this particular topic is a very interesting one because it (unlike other topics) isn't dictated by canon. We don't know for SURE what would have happened if the Jedi had entered the war, and this means that there is room for opinions. There is no absolute right or absolute wrong, and that makes this topic interesting.
That's true. We don't know what would have happened. But like Rayla said, the Emperor would have come in eventually.

The way I see it, there are many different ways the war could have gone down.

1. What did happen
2. The Jedi don't join the war at all
3. The Jedi join the war when things get really bad
4. The Jedi join the war right away

Option 1 led to the Jedi Civil War. Option 2 would lead to the Republic being destroyed. Option 3 would lead to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. Option 4 leads to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. But the outcome doesn't matter as the Emperor would have attacked eventually. What matters about these outcomes is who the Emperor would fight.

Option 1 is what we have now in TOR. Option 2 the Emperor takes control from Mandalore, with or without conflict. Option 3 and 4 the Emperor fights the "Sith" and the Star Forge.

EDIT: But these are only a few outcomes and paths that could have been taken.
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 11:48 AM | #43
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
The Emperor's plan would've worked regardless, that's all that really mattered.
Mmmm, very true.

And I agree with you Aurbere, the Council weren't twiddling their thumbs at first. They analysed the threat and realised what Revan did not, that there was a greater power, possibly the Sith, behind it. But they ultimately became apathetic dodo heads () when they chose to do nothing - i think this is the point KOTOR 2 is trying to stress. For instead the war became a bitter irony, for the choice the made led to that which they had tried to prevent. But I concede, full scale war wasn't the answer, and Jedi don't grow on trees, taking an advisory role (perhaps putting a few Jedi on the ground) was an answer. However, I don't think Revan would have fell anyway like many people here seem to believe. Revan was a Jedi, not a Sith at heart. (the fact that after suffering amnesia he became a Jedi is evidence of this). He only became Sith because outside sources corrupted him, not himself e.g. the Emperor, Malachor V (held Sith teachings), the Mandalorian Wars and the Star Forge. And he waged war against the Republic partly because he had been brainwashed by the Emperor and partly because he felt the Republic needed to be reformed, become stronger to face the True Sith. So his fall could have been prevented. In a way he was a bit like Anakin, but remember in the end Anakin turned back to the light, and really was inherently a Jedi (as a Sith he was broken etc). So in a nutshell the Jedi Civil War could easily have been prevented, (very easily, just prevent him finding Malachor and meeting the Emperor), after all, he loved the Republic, didn't he?

But enough arguing, I think we can all agree that the Jedi Council were partly wrong, and I different course of action should have been taken.

But before I end this, I must address a personal affront to my favourite Star Wars character. (yes you, OldVengeance, how dare you call her prophecies nonsense )

Quote:
Kreia's theory about Revan never falling and taking on the Mantle of the Dark Lord as a sacrifice is nonsense. The Jedi Order didn't need to to turn to the darkside to defeat the Sith Emperor or the Mandalorians.
Firstly, this wasn't Kreia's point. Her point was that Revan turned to the dark side and waged war against the Republic to make them strong enough to face the Sith. Not that the Council should turn to the dark side in order to defeat the Emperor and the Mandalorians. Basically she realised Revan saw the Republic as weak, not because their were Jedi, but because they were apathetic and overcautious, the True Sith would have made short work of them. She is not advocating Revan's actions. She is merely stating that his reasons for attacking the Republic were not for personal conquest and power, but to defend the galaxy against a greater threat that the current Republic could not hope to defeat. Hence he made a sacrifice, he sacrificed his loyalty to the Republic (remember Revan was fanatically loyal to the Republic).

However Kreia is partly wrong, but only because she did not know the full story, she did not know that the Emperor turned him to the dark side and sent him to fight the Republic, and that then he broke free of his control and continued his campaign. But that doesn't matter, the principle of her statement remains true. Because Revan remained 'Sith', he didn't stick to them because he had become hungry for power, but because he wanted to destroy the True Sith. He held on to the mantle of Dark Lord of the Sith because only through command of the Sith forces he had accumulated could he reforge the Republic and fight the True Sith, so he did make a sacrifice. He fell when he faced the Emperor, but he was 'redeemed' when he broke free of his control. After that he didn't 'fall', he stopped being Sith and instead became something else, an emotionless weapon needed to reforge the Republic.

Perhaps I'm making assumptions, perhaps this isn't the truth. But Kreia's opinion can make perfect sense and their is a lot of evidence for it. Its as just as plausible as what you believe.

/end rant

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
11.09.2012 , 12:01 PM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Mmmm, very true.

And I agree with you Aurbere, the Council weren't twiddling their thumbs at first. They analysed the threat and realised what Revan did not, that there was a greater power, possibly the Sith, behind it. But they ultimately became apathetic dodo heads () when they chose to do nothing - i think this is the point KOTOR 2 is trying to stress. For instead the war became a bitter irony, for the choice the made led to that which they had tried to prevent. But I concede, full scale war wasn't the answer, and Jedi don't grow on trees, taking an advisory role (perhaps putting a few Jedi on the ground) was an answer. However, I don't think Revan would have fell anyway like many people here seem to believe. Revan was a Jedi, not a Sith at heart. (the fact that after suffering amnesia he became a Jedi is evidence of this). He only became Sith because outside sources corrupted him, not himself e.g. the Emperor, Malachor V (held Sith teachings), the Mandalorian Wars and the Star Forge. And he waged war against the Republic partly because he had been brainwashed by the Emperor and partly because he felt the Republic needed to be reformed, become stronger to face the True Sith. So his fall could have been prevented. In a way he was a bit like Anakin, but remember in the end Anakin turned back to the light, and really was inherently a Jedi (as a Sith he was broken etc). So in a nutshell the Jedi Civil War could easily have been prevented, (very easily, just prevent him finding Malachor and meeting the Emperor), after all, he loved the Republic, didn't he?

But enough arguing, I think we can all agree that the Jedi Council were partly wrong, and I different course of action should have been taken.
Revan's actions during the war led to his fall to the Dark Side.

Now as to what I would do in this situation if I were the Jedi Grand Master.

I would work in conjunction with Republic heads of the military to analyze the attack plan of the Mandalorian. Using the information that we gathered through meditation and the attack plan of the Mandalorians, I would create a blockade to protect the systems that the Mandalorians are attacking most ferociously. I would then put small groups of Jedi on these planets and two Jedi per military fleet, but only as advisors and fleet commanders. They would also command the ground forces from the safety of the fleet*.

Once the blockade is set, I would then move the Republic fleets to systematically take system after system, slowly but carefully. Eventually, the Mandalorians would be routed and defeated.

This approach would allow the Jedi to fulfill their role as peace-keepers, while protecting their numbers from death and the Dark Side. For the war with the Sith Empire would be won in the Force, not with weapons and starships.

But we do agree that the Jedi could have acted differently.

* Safety as in safety from the Dark Side and the trappings of war
Added Chapter 41 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 12:21 PM | #45
Quote: Originally Posted by Rayla_Felana View Post
The Emperor's plan would've worked regardless, that's all that really mattered.
I think you are part Correct ,
*If Revan didn't go to aid the Republic more than likely someone who followed him would have anyways
*Maybe because Revan never went to War neither would have Meetra who was talked into it by Malek and Revan
*If these event never happened the The Jedi Meetra helped Rebuilt might have no been as Wise and ready for the Emperor !

Heres the What ifs
* Likely the Jedi would have no choice but to get involved later in the War which would have lead to more Jedi turned DarkJedi
* Maybe even a Republic distaste for the Jedi for letting them lose so much
* A weaker Republic because if Revan , Malek , Meetra and the others that followed them did not get involved , they would not have been stronger .
* likely the Emperor would have increased further on their weakness and the Republic would eventually became the Empire .

I know I am missing a few What IFs and Maybes
But we can all say in the end Meetra helped make the Jedi Stronger after the events of KotoRII , and if she would have never followed Revan , she might have not been so skilled and wise in the end after learning from War .
She being the only one out of the Many Jedi to follow Revan that never turned DarkJedi or so I can think of.

This is what makes Meetra's character so important and intresting , she remained a loyal friend with a man that turned on what they believed . I still think maybe there was some feelings involved but that is JUST MY OPINION !
Darth Mefit
Sith Marauder
Chiss
Shadowlands Server

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 12:30 PM | #46
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Revan's actions during the war led to his fall to the Dark Side.

Now as to what I would do in this situation if I were the Jedi Grand Master.

I would work in conjunction with Republic heads of the military to analyze the attack plan of the Mandalorian. Using the information that we gathered through meditation and the attack plan of the Mandalorians, I would create a blockade to protect the systems that the Mandalorians are attacking most ferociously. I would then put small groups of Jedi on these planets and two Jedi per military fleet, but only as advisors and fleet commanders. They would also command the ground forces from the safety of the fleet*.

Once the blockade is set, I would then move the Republic fleets to systematically take system after system, slowly but carefully. Eventually, the Mandalorians would be routed and defeated.

This approach would allow the Jedi to fulfill their role as peace-keepers, while protecting their numbers from death and the Dark Side. For the war with the Sith Empire would be won in the Force, not with weapons and starships.

But we do agree that the Jedi could have acted differently.

* Safety as in safety from the Dark Side and the trappings of war
Agreed

War changes people , Jedi themselves are open to their own opinions at times and intrest . More often do Jedi change to Darkjedi through out Lore then talked about . Exar Kun , Revan , Malek , Dooku , and Anakin are not the only ones to go from Jedi to Sith or DarkJedi's . War changed Jacen as well , it takes a Toll on you when you see the defenseless die hopelessly and without mercy .
(I know War did not change Exar Kun or Dooku , they were on the Path no matter what was going on at their time and neither fell in a War but both were Key members of their own Wars)

Even if the Jedi Council would have got involved from the getgo , it would probably quickened Revan's fall to the darkside and he would still have likely taken those who followed him when the Council did not get involved , it is highly likely he would have gotten more Jedi to follow him down his path if the Council did get involved .
Its MY OPINION if the Coucil got involved , it would be likely Meetra would have fallen and followed Malek and Revan to the Darkside as she wouldn't have a Council to judge her on her actions !

So in the long run if you look at it as if it was fate , than these events that did happen all have a purpose for the greater of the timeline .
Meetra who is oddly not talked about in this Debat had to go her path in order to help teh Jedi order become more wiser to the cautions of what might come and she did !
Darth Mefit
Sith Marauder
Chiss
Shadowlands Server

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 12:37 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Revan's actions during the war led to his fall to the Dark Side.

Now as to what I would do in this situation if I were the Jedi Grand Master.

I would work in conjunction with Republic heads of the military to analyze the attack plan of the Mandalorian. Using the information that we gathered through meditation and the attack plan of the Mandalorians, I would create a blockade to protect the systems that the Mandalorians are attacking most ferociously. I would then put small groups of Jedi on these planets and two Jedi per military fleet, but only as advisors and fleet commanders. They would also command the ground forces from the safety of the fleet*.

Once the blockade is set, I would then move the Republic fleets to systematically take system after system, slowly but carefully. Eventually, the Mandalorians would be routed and defeated.

This approach would allow the Jedi to fulfill their role as peace-keepers, while protecting their numbers from death and the Dark Side. For the war with the Sith Empire would be won in the Force, not with weapons and starships.

But we do agree that the Jedi could have acted differently.

* Safety as in safety from the Dark Side and the trappings of war
This sound likes a sound course of action, why weren't you on the Jedi Council! What would you say to Jedi strike teams (similar to SWTOR) striking out at key Mandalorian targets so a Republic victory could progress more smoothly? I feel that in such a format, and detached from the frenzy of full scale war (as well as not being in a position of command, they would simply have objectives to complete) and would prevent fall to the dark side. And didn't they do this in the Clone Wars? How many episodes are about Jedi teams taking out targets, performing rescue missions etc. rather than full scale war?

As for your first statement however, partly true. Revan's actions did lead him close to the darkside. But it was Malachor and meeting the Emperor that gave the final push. If these events were prevented, his fall would never have happened. In fact I think the main reason for his fall was the True Sith threat, like Kreia said he never 'fell', but felt it was necessary to become a Dark Lord to reforge the Republic (and he was brainwashed by the Emperor - people seem to forget this). If he had never discovered the True Sith, he would have no reason to fall to the dark side, because that would mean turning against the Republic, and Revan would not do that without good reason.

mefit's Avatar


mefit
11.09.2012 , 12:44 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by MasterMe View Post
Yeah, I doubt it is as heated as Revan. That's about as controversial as it gets.

But I feel that this particular topic is a very interesting one because it (unlike other topics) isn't dictated by canon. We don't know for SURE what would have happened if the Jedi had entered the war, and this means that there is room for opinions. There is no absolute right or absolute wrong, and that makes this topic interesting.
Problem with the Revan Debat is there are two sides of it that will never agree and there is a middle trapped because of their like or don't care about the whole Revan bit .

Revan was not all powerful , he was a key Character defined by his roll in a War that made him stand out . If not for that War we will never know because then it becomes a What If that will likely never happen other than fanbase imaginations .
Personally I been playing Kotor I and II recently and it did make my want to like Revan and Meetra more .
Revan is not a George Lucas character so there for hes trapped by Rules that were set in stone , but those same rules say the All Powerful GrandMaster Luke never happens , nor does it say he ever married or taht Mara Jade ever lived .
Now that Lucas is gone , so is Plot Armor and those Rules .
I like my characters with faults , able to die, and not all powerful .
Last year I was a Big Revan Fanboy but between the disappointment of the Revan Novel and Foundrey and the Revan Fandoys it kinda hurt him to me .
We are all welcomed to like who we want but since this game "TOR" was made , the majority of debats have been created by those who hate/really dislike his fanbase or character. The Counter reply by his fanbase has been as bad as the attacks .

I like Luke Skywalker ,Ep4-6 . I really dislike EU Grandmaster , wipe the floor , pwn everything Luke Skywalker .
But I like EU Luke married to Mara Jade , after all Luke is not beyond Romance and is not Jesus for Petter sakes.

So in the end the KotoR lore always gets the most opinionated and most full out fight Debats in the whole StarWars Series .
Darth Mefit
Sith Marauder
Chiss
Shadowlands Server

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
11.09.2012 , 12:46 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by mefit View Post
Problem with the Revan Debat is there are two sides of it that will never agree and there is a middle trapped because of their like or don't care about the whole Revan bit .

Revan was not all powerful , he was a key Character defined by his roll in a War that made him stand out . If not for that War we will never know because then it becomes a What If that will likely never happen other than fanbase imaginations .
Personally I been playing Kotor I and II recently and it did make my want to like Revan and Meetra more .
Revan is not a George Lucas character so there for hes trapped by Rules that were set in stone , but those same rules say the All Powerful GrandMaster Luke never happens , nor does it say he ever married or taht Mara Jade ever lived .
Now that Lucas is gone , so is Plot Armor and those Rules .
I like my characters with faults , able to die, and not all powerful .
Last year I was a Big Revan Fanboy but between the disappointment of the Revan Novel and Foundrey and the Revan Fandoys it kinda hurt him to me .
We are all welcomed to like who we want but since this game "TOR" was made , the majority of debats have been created by those who hate/really dislike his fanbase or character. The Counter reply by his fanbase has been as bad as the attacks .

I like Luke Skywalker ,Ep4-6 . I really dislike EU Grandmaster , wipe the floor , pwn everything Luke Skywalker .
But I like EU Luke married to Mara Jade , after all Luke is not beyond Romance and is not Jesus for Petter sakes.

So in the end the KotoR lore always gets the most opinionated and most full out fight Debats in the whole StarWars Series .
lol, DON'T BRING IT UP!! You'll wake the Revanites!

MasterMe's Avatar


MasterMe
11.09.2012 , 12:53 PM | #50
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
That's true. We don't know what would have happened. But like Rayla said, the Emperor would have come in eventually.

The way I see it, there are many different ways the war could have gone down.

1. What did happen
2. The Jedi don't join the war at all
3. The Jedi join the war when things get really bad
4. The Jedi join the war right away

Option 1 led to the Jedi Civil War. Option 2 would lead to the Republic being destroyed. Option 3 would lead to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. Option 4 leads to the Jedi Civil War and the Republic being destroyed. But the outcome doesn't matter as the Emperor would have attacked eventually. What matters about these outcomes is who the Emperor would fight.

Option 1 is what we have now in TOR. Option 2 the Emperor takes control from Mandalore, with or without conflict. Option 3 and 4 the Emperor fights the "Sith" and the Star Forge.

EDIT: But these are only a few outcomes and paths that could have been taken.
That's very interesting.

However Option 3 (I think) would have gone better then you say. If the Jedi had joined the war (I mean join mostly as generals) then everything would've been fine. There wouldn't have been an opportunity for people (like Revan) to fall to the darkside. because the moment Revan did something remotely bad, then the Council would have been on top of him and would have prevented any fall.