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Sad state of operations


Ifrica's Avatar


Ifrica
11.07.2012 , 04:54 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by SleepyKing View Post
I often find the same thing as the OP - there are plenty of gear snobs to go around. In truth, knowledge of mechanics and good team play goes much further than the 5% (if that) difference between being in full Rakata vs Columi. Hell, I'd rather run an Op with someone in recruit gear who is a good team player than someone in full BH who has no idea what they're doing.
agree with you, the other night we took a couple new members on a gearing night in EV/KP HM, one of them didn't even have recruit gear, but orange modded with lvl 49 mods, that player even didn't have any operation/raid experience whatsoever, maybe there was a bit lower damage output, but they did better then some of our geared members. skill/teamplay > gear
Mirobi Snowdrifter - Sage \\ // Pulian Snowdrifter - Sorcerer
System : AMD Phenom II 955 - 16GB DDR3 (1600) - Radeon HD7950 - Samsung SSD

POPsi's Avatar


POPsi
11.07.2012 , 04:55 AM | #22
the other day someone asked for a healer for the last boss of KP via group finder... I joined, hell it's free bh comms faster than a HM FP. Now I understand why most people ask for overgeared members if pugging. If I haven't been full BH+ geared as a healer I could've hardly healed through this boss even on SM. People completely lacked the knowledge of any kinds of tactics, weren't using cc on trash, or breaking it asap, spreading out in all kinds of directions, standing behind Karagga despite telling them not to, etc. A columi or lower gear level healer couldn't have handled that kind of healing I had to put out to keep everyone up. Afterwards I was bored and pugged a SM EC, same goes there. Even the tanks didn't have a clue what to do with Kephess. So yes, there is reason behind asking for better gear than the operation is tuned for in case of pugs- because if you can't get the tactics down well enough, you will still have a chance to do it by brute force.

Ifrica's Avatar


Ifrica
11.07.2012 , 05:00 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanjir View Post
I believe it's more about the poor quality of players. I've been with many people who believe they're all decked out and hot **** when they have more endurance then main-stat for a full 61 dps/healer. If you're hitting enrage in TFB SM, that's pretty bad. TFB SM is easy enough that a group in Columi shouldn't have too much trouble. Provided they have some idea about what they're doing.
that endurance thing is funny to see really seeing dps' with more life then the tank hehe.
anwyays, i wanted to quote on the last sentence.. something that we like to do with our guild is never read up on tactics and try to figure it out ourselves, which is really fun, because imo that way you really get to know the encounter, because you start off wiping a few times, looking at all buffs/debuffs and things the boss does, trying to find a way to cope with it and get passed the encounter. By far we will have a flawless tactic the first times we go through the op, but it's a challenge compared to groups that go watch tact videos overa nd over and don't think about what's really going on in a fight. so ye, especially with new ops, we don't have a clue what we're doing
though that doesn't make us bad players, does it?
Mirobi Snowdrifter - Sage \\ // Pulian Snowdrifter - Sorcerer
System : AMD Phenom II 955 - 16GB DDR3 (1600) - Radeon HD7950 - Samsung SSD

SgtKlavier's Avatar


SgtKlavier
11.07.2012 , 08:44 AM | #24
All good stuff on here; it is interesting how end-game performance has developed.
Two points:
One of the main issues from PuGs is the disparity in knowledge of fights. A group (or part of a group) that hasn't seen all of TFB is most likely going to struggle with mechanics unless they are preparing appropriately. This is an area where in my opinion many people fall short. When I join an operation, be it pug or with my guild, I am always trying to improve my performance on fights and do the best I can to be ready for new encounters when we get to them. I feel it is my responsibility to contribute my role to the group as much as possible in this way. For example, the first time I need SM TFB I joined on last boss, but knew the fight better than most of the group because I had watched the video guide in detail. Unfortunately, I see many people taking a more casual mindset along the lines of "I'll just listen to whatever the raid leader says and assume I'm doing everything right unless he/she says otherwise." The raid leader might know the basics of a fight, but cannot be actively looking at every player for mistakes and ways to improve, so it should fall to the individual to improve as necessary. This lack of responsibility contributes to a lot of "poor play," and adding in the fact that a pug player is not really held "accountable" by any means, the lazy way out is very easy to take.

Second, some people lose that drive to improve even more when carried by an overgeared player. The high gear level of one player can make up for a multitude of mistakes on story mode operations, which creates a negative chain effect by only reinforcing the mistakes or bad strategies players are using. If they can complete the story mode content while playing badly, but always get carried by a higher geared player, it justifies (incorrectly) the mindset of not needing to improve. The issue becomes apparent, and can present a lot of difficulty when you reach content that cannot be carried through, or at least not easily. Players set in their ways will have a hard time changing, but they must do so as a few amazingly geared people is not going to cut it in terms of mistakes being made.

Going back to the OP, the group you encountered may simply have wanted to be "carried," or thought you were not dependable because your lower gear level suggests (once again, incorrectly) less knowledge of fights. I'm not sure how many people would lie about their fight experience to get in a group, but I can see it happening. However, in that case, it should become obvious simply by watching the player, so there was no reason to deny you the spot in the group as you could be replaced if you performed inadequately (which you wouldn't).

Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
11.07.2012 , 10:04 AM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanjir View Post
I believe it's more about the poor quality of players. I've been with many people who believe they're all decked out and hot **** when they have more endurance then main-stat for a full 61 dps/healer. If you're hitting enrage in TFB SM, that's pretty bad. TFB SM is easy enough that a group in Columi shouldn't have too much trouble. Provided they have some idea about what they're doing.
The default black hole gear isn't well optimised for some classes as you obviously know, but if you're in Rakata the increase in armouring and hence survivability means trading up for BH is still a good option, even if you stack more endurance and less of your main stat. I consider it an acceptable transitional phase while you're building up credits and comms for optimised armouring / mods, or running ops to get campaign gear, and it should be more than good enough for TFB SM.

My scoundrel healer has 23K health in augmented Black Hole gear. I've left the Rakata implants in because they're better optimised and have no armouring bonus. Whatever augs you go for on a scoundrel, you stack yet more endurance, hence more HP, but it's a necessary evil.

Now, what makes me really laugh is tanks with 30K HP upwards. You don't stack that much endurance with regular gear, you have to deliberately optimise for it. The only way to do that is to neglect other things. Invariably when I see one - and they're rare - their defense, shield and absorb are absolute pants. Any tank with over 27K HP in the current gear available makes me very, very suspicious that we have an idiot in our midst.
Carilie - Scoundrel // Dastelen - Shadow // Dras'yra - Sniper // Elonie - Sorcerer // Undali - Powertech
Server: The Red Eclipse // Guild: The Onyx Guard / The Orbital Guard

Jimvinny's Avatar


Jimvinny
11.07.2012 , 02:02 PM | #26
Quote: Originally Posted by Ms_Sunlight View Post
The default black hole gear isn't well optimised for some classes as you obviously know, but if you're in Rakata the increase in armouring and hence survivability means trading up for BH is still a good option, even if you stack more endurance and less of your main stat. I consider it an acceptable transitional phase while you're building up credits and comms for optimised armouring / mods, or running ops to get campaign gear, and it should be more than good enough for TFB SM.

My scoundrel healer has 23K health in augmented Black Hole gear. I've left the Rakata implants in because they're better optimised and have no armouring bonus. Whatever augs you go for on a scoundrel, you stack yet more endurance, hence more HP, but it's a necessary evil.

Now, what makes me really laugh is tanks with 30K HP upwards. You don't stack that much endurance with regular gear, you have to deliberately optimise for it. The only way to do that is to neglect other things. Invariably when I see one - and they're rare - their defense, shield and absorb are absolute pants. Any tank with over 27K HP in the current gear available makes me very, very suspicious that we have an idiot in our midst.
Your last paragraph is a little off. Dread Guard tank gear is extremely endurance heavy, with very little sacrifice in the mitigation stats. My shadow tank has 29k hp with 26% def., 65% shield, and 60% absorb. it's very easy to get over 27k with full mitigation stats, as long as some dread guard gear is in there.

cisme's Avatar


cisme
11.07.2012 , 02:34 PM | #27
I'm over-geared compared to my guild so when I do TFB it's usually with pugs and I'm normally fine with columi gear but there are two situations where I won't let them in

1 They heal
I know its for columi but on the last boss I have yet to see a columi healer that can keep me up (for reference I'm a vanguard that is 60/60/20 in full campaign/ bh

2. our dps is already too high.
I understand this is weird but I don't want to make good players wait and again on the last boss if the dps is uneven it makes the ind of the fight a real pain as less dmg is done to the tentacles

sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
11.07.2012 , 08:41 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by Jimvinny View Post
Your last paragraph is a little off. Dread Guard tank gear is extremely endurance heavy, with very little sacrifice in the mitigation stats. My shadow tank has 29k hp with 26% def., 65% shield, and 60% absorb. it's very easy to get over 27k with full mitigation stats, as long as some dread guard gear is in there.
Which is why you do not use a lot of DG as a sin tank. I RE most of what I get. learnt the robust 27B mods which is end heavy(56 end 34 absorb) and have replaced all the thrash from DG with it. looking to get the normal 27 robust so i can get 41 absorb and get my max mitigation gear as well.

I think your itemisation is not too good. My tank has 24.5k hp stimmed, 28% def, 69% shield 63% absorb. This is because the 3 DG pieces I got ive only used the armorings and maybe 1 enhancement. waiting for proper hazmat drops to get proper enhancements and mods.

Ailie's Avatar


Ailie
11.07.2012 , 11:06 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by NotRonin View Post
TFB SM have a very lenient gear requirement. It's designed for players in Columi, which is why it's dropping Rakata.. This just demonstrates the raid leader is clueless and relies on being 'overgeared' to get through the mechanics.
^ this

Especially healers and tanks. Tanking in this game is not hard, but so many people completely fail at it. Healing is probably harder since there's no such thing as force/ammo pots so you have to manage that and compensate for poor skills.

Huobes's Avatar


Huobes
11.08.2012 , 12:05 AM | #30
It's great to see all the replies to this thread and to know that I'm not alone in my observations. I definitely hear the point that some of you have made that, when pugging, leaders will opt for higher geared players to counteract the lack of coordination and general unpredictability of PuGs.

The instance that led me to start this thread, however, was not one of these cases. It was a guild run for which they were looking to only add two dps. I was very clear with the leader that this was an alt and that my main had been through TFB HM (16M at that, which IMHO is much harder) many times, so I knew the fights and assured him I wouldn't be a liability. I offered to run a parser with the rest of his dps to make sure the gap wasn't too significant. I asked which of the voice programs they were using. In short, I did all I could to demonstrate that I'm a reliable, knowledgable player and it would make up for any perceived lack of gear.

How did he respond? He ignored me! Before this, I had never been ignored by anyone and I've been playing this game since launch. I was being completely respectful, even apologizing if I sounded condescending while explaining the gear requirement. Totally baffled me and, I must say, compelled me to start this thread.

Which brings be back to the thread's title, "sad state of operations." Are we really at the point where people would go so far to fake proficiency that raid leaders need to be so skeptical? Why can't you trust me to self regulate and only apply to encounters I know I'm suited for? Would I have brought this toon for EC HM or TFB HM? Hell no! I'd need at least full rakata first for just the former. And how was I trying to get to that point? By running TFB SM, duh. I take a lot of care to monitor how I'm performing and determining what level of encounters I'm able to do. I know I might not be in the majority on that one, but are there really so many clueless idiots out there that are irresponsibly joining groups they have no business running with? Was it really so hard to distinguish me from them? The whole thing left me with a very bad taste in my mouth and completely disillusioned with our seemingly ignorant player base.