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Resolve Thread #1 Billion

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Resolve Thread #1 Billion

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.06.2012 , 12:57 PM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Solarenergy View Post
But I also understand that roots are a fundamental mechanism to their class, since they are pretty much a "turret" class, and they need roots as much as they need their other unique abilities such as being immune to interrupts and leaps and pushback. It's the same reason that melee leapers have leap ability that immbolizes, it's a necessary mechanism for the class, otherwise they would become disadvantaged classes. I will never agree with roots building resolve because some "poor" melee has already been cc spammed by a bunch of other people, that is not a sniper's fault for playing his class the way its meant to be played. I have no problem with my flash grenade and my debilitate not working sometimes, it's even semi- okay that I can't knock back those guardians that like to get in my face.
so how is cryo grenade *not* a fundamental ability to a VG? or grapple? or neural surge? I need them to deal with melee and heals and range, just like you need your root to deal with melee....

it's not like I'm saying root shouldn't work, but for the lousy FOUR SECONDS OF FULL RESOLVE IMMUNITY, you're going to complain that the guy isn't rootable? come on! that's laughble to me. and why on earth would you care if root added to resolve, since you'd already have had to root the person for it to matter?

personally, i'm more offended that full resolve can still be rooted/snared than that they build resolve, but they're both, by definition, CC. resolve doesn't manage CC well at all, and no, I probably wouldn't care if this were pre 1.4.

focusing on the bold part: you're in a team game. your teammates screw-ups are your problems. this is like lando screaming "it's not my fault! they told me they fixed it!" yeah. well "they" didn't. you don't always get what you want. and, perhaps this is just me, but did a sniper just mock poor melee? leaps and pulls don't even work on snipers, AND they nerfed the range of stuns to a useless (in regard to fighting snipers) 10m. so please, let's not pretend as if you don't have plenty of time to unload on an oncoming melee. the stealth classes....ok. sure. there are a lot more maras, juggs, PTs than assassins & ops.
meh
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.06.2012 , 01:16 PM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
I've come to really hate this reply. I understand it, but my thought on the matter is you can't always get what you want. your cc (root) can't always hit. god forbid you have to be careful about who/when you root. and c'mmon, if the guy has full resolve, he's already had to suffer through a ton of CC. now he's rooted? lol. c'mmon. overkill much? how is being full resolve and being insusceptible to stuns any different from having full resolve and being insusceptible to a root? because it's bad for the person trying to root? really? is it supposed to be good for the guy trying to stun? hey, I just stunned that sin who doesn't have full resolve. why should he have shroud immunity? same dif: I can't always get what I want.

bottom line: your root shouldn't always work, just like your punt doesn't always work and grapple doesn't always work. use your roots judiciously like every other class has to with their CCs.
Bottom line, go play a ranged dps class for an extensive period of time. Everyone who has ever complained about how roots/snares aren't on resolve has never played a ranged dps class.

Solarenergy's Avatar


Solarenergy
11.06.2012 , 01:16 PM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by foxmob View Post
so how is cryo grenade *not* a fundamental ability to a VG? or grapple? or neural surge? I need them to deal with melee and heals and range, just like you need your root to deal with melee....

it's not like I'm saying root shouldn't work, but for the lousy FOUR SECONDS OF FULL RESOLVE IMMUNITY, you're going to complain that the guy isn't rootable? come on! that's laughble to me. and why on earth would you care if root added to resolve, since you'd already have had to root the person for it to matter?

personally, i'm more offended that full resolve can still be rooted/snared than that they build resolve, but they're both, by definition, CC. resolve doesn't manage CC well at all, and no, I probably wouldn't care if this were pre 1.4.

focusing on the bold part: you're in a team game. your teammates screw-ups are your problems. this is like lando screaming "it's not my fault! they told me they fixed it!" yeah. well "they" didn't. you don't always get what you want. and, perhaps this is just me, but did a sniper just mock poor melee? leaps and pulls don't even work on snipers, AND they nerfed the range of stuns to a useless (in regard to fighting snipers) 10m. so please, let's not pretend as if you don't have plenty of time to unload on an oncoming melee. the stealth classes....ok. sure. there are a lot more maras, juggs, PTs than assassins & ops.
Again, it's not about "always getting what you want" like you keep saying. Cryo grenade is a true stun (just like debilitate, which of course should build resolve) grapple is a gap closer, which is used most frequently to pull people into fires and traps than for anything else. And yes, I think roots are more essential to a turret defender like a sniper than any of these abilities are to their respective classes. I don't want to have to worry about a simple root building resolve when I use it, just as if I had actually used a stun or mezz on them. Also how it would affect resolve to what my teammates are doing with their cc's whether there's another sniper on my team also rooting or defending our side of the map with me, etc. We make everything fill resolve and then you have the complete opposite of the cc-fest that's going on now. Walking on eggshells with cc is just as bad. And just because melee can't leap or pull they aren't deterred. Marauders and sentinels like to use their little Houdini trick to attack snipers all the time. Sniper isn't the only class I've played extensively in this game, and any time I'm on one of my melee I hate getting rooted as much as anyone else, so I can see it from that point of view. But that really doesn't warrant roots building resolve. And the whole roots issue is really going off topic of what the real problem. In a typical game, roots are probably the least form of cc that I encounter. Consecutive hard stuns and mezzes are what happens 90% of the time I'm cc'd. Before 1.4, it wasn't a problem, as resolve built quickly. That's the true problem, is the sheer amount of cc that is in PVP right now, and it truly wasn't there prior to 1.4.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.06.2012 , 01:32 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
sigh. What happens if your ranged now? That's right 2 - 3 warriors leap to you root, push and choke you to death. Guess what will happen with the changes I proposed.. oh yes you're resolve will fill up within a few globals giving you unstoppable as ranged. That let's you kite and there's not a damn thing the melee can do about it. Once you are full resolved that's it. They have to deliberately wait and let your resolve come off before they can do anything about your movement. If anything the changes I propose punish melee players more than ranged. In terms of 1v1 nothing changes. You will NEVER fill the resolve of the opposing player unless you stun/root every global or if they pop their breaker. At which point you can also pop your breaker.
Your change wouldn't do anything in that situation. 3 people beating on you at the same time = death either way.

Quote:
Look this is really simple.. you cannot take my system and say adding roots to resolve would ruin things when it's quite clear you are projecting it over the "current" system. Yes, in this regard you're completely right here! If they added roots to the current resolve system then ranged would get completely ****ed over. Also everyone would be walking around 100% resolved all the time.
Well your proposal to remove hard stuns is a bad idea. Healers are hard enough as it is to kill. I know because my commando is unkillable unless I get a whole group on me. Same with my sage healer. And scoundrel healers are even worse. Not having a hard stun means you're never going to kill a healer unless you focus fire even harder than right now.

Quote:
As far as resolve not working.. It absolutely unequivocally does not work. Why even have resolve at all if all it does is drain away in the respawn area? Tell me what the point of it is, please? Hell if you want a crystal clear demonstartion of what the 'current" resolve system has in store for you, try playing huttball as a ball carrier. There's been matches where a simple task like walking from the huttball pickup point to the pit area ( only about a 40m distance) has taken more than a minute. Most games I end up rooted in the pit blowing every cooldown, mashing pass and forward. I only need to take like 3 more steps but I can't. I am full resolved and have been for the past 30 seconds while my character just stands there rooted, bleeding health. The funniest bit of all is that most classes couldn't get 5 meters without being totally beaten to death. Heck this is actually the reason I play an immortal vengeance jug just so I don't have to put up with the lame stunfest as much as other classes. You can't stunlock an immortal vengeance jug to death. They at least have a fighting chance.
Stop confusing the word "broken" with "I don't like it". Broken means there's bugs or it's not working as it was intended to. All your complaints are about how YOU don't like it. It's not the same thing. I came from WoW, and the CC there was so much more terrible. I totally love how resolve works (before the recent change). It could use some tweaks like lowering cd on our cc break, or making it so additional cc used on you when you're white barred will extend it. Things like that.

Quote:
Would my changes allow easier huttball capping? Sure, not just for jugs but for all classes. It would encourage skillful passing, tactical rooting and slowing rather then the current gank cluster **** mindless zombie stunfest. Hell it might even cause people to actually start playing huttball rather than the typical DPS stat padding shenanigans.
How would this encourage passing? If anything, it would make someone more likely to hold onto the ball because if they get white barred, they will have free reign. Roots aren't spammable, so they're already being used tactically.

Quote:
Would my changes prevent 5 players from stunlocking and beating down their oponent? Hell yes! The current system you can be stunned for more than 8 seconds straight and there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Even when your resolve is full they can still beat you down while your character just stands there bent over. My changes allow not only a meaningful escape mechanism but also a big restriction on the duration you can be disabled for.

Reverting the changes won't solve a damn thing. As I pointed out the TTK gets faster every patch. The resolve system was never built to handle this. It's broken, it's not working as intended. If it was then why did bioware change it? Well they did change it and their changes failed miserably. Time for a revamp.
Your changes wouldn't prevent 5 ppl from beating down 1 player at all. Also, you can't be stunned for longer than 8s straight.

And the TTK is perfectly fine for most classes. I have two healers. I can keep people alive plenty fine. In fact, when two equal teams play each other in RWZs, nobody ends up capping mid in CW, or south in NC, or get past first door in VS because teams can't kill players fast enough before they come running back.

Solarenergy's Avatar


Solarenergy
11.06.2012 , 01:37 PM | #25
^Agree with what you said about roots already being used tactically anyway. Roots are actually quite impossible to use mindlessly.

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
11.06.2012 , 06:46 PM | #26
I swear most people don't read lol. At least Foxmob get's it.

I am going to say this one more time. Roots adding to the resolve system I proposed will NOT affect a snipers capacity to root and slow in a 1v1 situation. I have played a gunslinger, I know full well how much time gunslingers spend rooting/slowing knocking back and generally trying to keep mobs off of them. Quite frankly the class is WEAK vs mobs and strong vs individual targets. They can't root en mass. That class is at the mercy of the rest of their team more than any other class. If your team is bad you will get rolled and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You need your teammates as a meat shield to keep the mobs back so you can pick off targets.

The current system has the resolve bar filling up continuously. When stuns are not used it takes a little while for the resolve bar to start to decay. My system has the resolve bar decaying constantly. If you manage to fill the resolve bar completely full you get punished for it.. and rightfully so! Firing off a root every 9 seconds will NOT fill someones resolve bar to full. Hell, even if 5 warriors leap to you at the same time it would still only add 200 net resolve points. The maximum duration you can be rooted with my system is 10 seconds. 10 seconds is long time to be standing in 1 spot but under the current resolve system you can be stuck in the one spot indefinitely which is an absolutely freaking joke!

Now onto this 3 v 1 crap and saying my system does nothing. I'm probably wasting my time here but I'll spell it out anyway.

Let's assume player A is being attacked by player B and C within the current resolve system. All 3 players are of the same skill level, have the same hit points and damage, etc. Player A will reduce the health of player B by 50% before he dies while player C is at full health. Now let's throw stuns into the mix. Player A will likely do no damage to player B and C because they have twice the stuns and will be able to "stunlock" him to the point where he has no opportunity to attack, pop defenses, stun back, whatever....

Now let's assume that player A is of high skill level and player B and C are scrubs. Player A, because of optimal rotations, ends up churning out a little more than twice the damage of B and C. In this scenario player A will kill both player B and C. Now let's add stuns back into the mix. Player A should defeat player B but in turn be defeated by player C. Do you see the bigger picture here?

Stuns are a substitute for skill. That's my gripe! If 5 players set on me , sure I know I am likely going to die but at least if my skill level is high enough I could take out 1 or 2 players. I could pop defenses, I could delay them long enough for teammates to show up, etc. With the current resolve system it's stun stun stun death... so yes! the resolve changes I made make a HUGE difference! They are designed to punish players who lob stuns as a crutch, penalizing them for filling up the resolve bar. This is the way it damn well should be. That's the whole freaking point of having a resolve system. It's supposed to offset the stupid amount of stuns produced by the sheer volume of players and make the game actually enjoyable!

The current resolve system is BROKEN and yes I love how you skipped over the point made about bioware changing it implying it isn't functioning as intended ROTFL.

Smashbrother's Avatar


Smashbrother
11.06.2012 , 09:18 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by JackNader View Post
I swear most people don't read lol. At least Foxmob get's it.

I am going to say this one more time. Roots adding to the resolve system I proposed will NOT affect a snipers capacity to root and slow in a 1v1 situation. I have played a gunslinger, I know full well how much time gunslingers spend rooting/slowing knocking back and generally trying to keep mobs off of them. Quite frankly the class is WEAK vs mobs and strong vs individual targets. They can't root en mass. That class is at the mercy of the rest of their team more than any other class. If your team is bad you will get rolled and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. You need your teammates as a meat shield to keep the mobs back so you can pick off targets.

The current system has the resolve bar filling up continuously. When stuns are not used it takes a little while for the resolve bar to start to decay. My system has the resolve bar decaying constantly. If you manage to fill the resolve bar completely full you get punished for it.. and rightfully so! Firing off a root every 9 seconds will NOT fill someones resolve bar to full. Hell, even if 5 warriors leap to you at the same time it would still only add 200 net resolve points. The maximum duration you can be rooted with my system is 10 seconds. 10 seconds is long time to be standing in 1 spot but under the current resolve system you can be stuck in the one spot indefinitely which is an absolutely freaking joke!

Now onto this 3 v 1 crap and saying my system does nothing. I'm probably wasting my time here but I'll spell it out anyway.

Let's assume player A is being attacked by player B and C within the current resolve system. All 3 players are of the same skill level, have the same hit points and damage, etc. Player A will reduce the health of player B by 50% before he dies while player C is at full health. Now let's throw stuns into the mix. Player A will likely do no damage to player B and C because they have twice the stuns and will be able to "stunlock" him to the point where he has no opportunity to attack, pop defenses, stun back, whatever....

Now let's assume that player A is of high skill level and player B and C are scrubs. Player A, because of optimal rotations, ends up churning out a little more than twice the damage of B and C. In this scenario player A will kill both player B and C. Now let's add stuns back into the mix. Player A should defeat player B but in turn be defeated by player C. Do you see the bigger picture here?

Stuns are a substitute for skill. That's my gripe! If 5 players set on me , sure I know I am likely going to die but at least if my skill level is high enough I could take out 1 or 2 players. I could pop defenses, I could delay them long enough for teammates to show up, etc. With the current resolve system it's stun stun stun death... so yes! the resolve changes I made make a HUGE difference! They are designed to punish players who lob stuns as a crutch, penalizing them for filling up the resolve bar. This is the way it damn well should be. That's the whole freaking point of having a resolve system. It's supposed to offset the stupid amount of stuns produced by the sheer volume of players and make the game actually enjoyable!

The current resolve system is BROKEN and yes I love how you skipped over the point made about bioware changing it implying it isn't functioning as intended ROTFL.
You've clearly not played a sniper much, if at all, as they are the only class with a baseline aoe root. It's apparent you don't really know what you're talking about.

You also don't realize what your resolve change will do to healers. It will make it nearly impossible to kill them. Getting a healer to 30% and then hard stunning them is pretty much the only way they will die right now.

Your main issue seems to be that baddies aren't punished for spamming CCs. Well if we revert the resolve system to pre 1.4, baddies will once again be punished for spamming CCs. Problem solved.

JackNader's Avatar


JackNader
11.06.2012 , 09:57 PM | #28
So I should have added "continuously" to the end of that sentence.. shoot me. 20 second aoe knockback with a root.. please. Sorcs can also spec into that too btw. Fat lot of good it does them too when they'll just be leaped too, rooted and stunned to death.

I can't believe i have to argue the point here. This community has had to deal with stunlock deaths for almost a year. How many people have unsubed over this? How many threads have been posted on this BB concerning it? How many times have we heard people complain they can't play their character because they are being stunned to death.

As for healers being unkillable with my changes.. NO. I've explained in great detail the problem with bioware's healing mechanics in previous threads. I warned people what would happen if bioware continues to push gear upgrades without entering an offset mechanic. Heals do FULL healing.. They bypass armor completely and heal for the full amount. Every time bioware releases new gear they increase the damage, healing, armor and hit points. It doesn't take a genius to work out that damage is being offset by the armor and hit points at least marginally but heals have NOTHING to offset it. Bioware implemented a half assed fix back in 1.2 when they reduced the pvp healing rate through expertise. My god why is this **** so hard for people to understand? Healing got a kick in the teeth in 1.2. It worked but all they did was kick the can down the road. The resolve system should have nothing to do with being able to kill healers. The fact that it presently does should speak volumes. You can't have a headache without an underlying cause.

Quite frankly I can kill healers fine when they are not guarded and I'm taunted. Granted my DPS character is min/maxed and I run the highest "sustained" single target burst spec in the game. Other classes are not so fortunate. So again don't pass the buck onto the resolve changes and cry you won't be able to kill healers when clearly it's biowares healing mechanics that are flawed.

Reverting the 1.4 changes back to what they were will achieve NOTHING. Not a damn thing. People complained bitterly about the system before. I can't believe I keep reading this statement. Do you people have goldfish syndrome or something? At least Bioware had enough foresight to realize their resolve system was failing and decided to do something about it. Granted they messed it up further but at least they tried!

foxmob's Avatar


foxmob
11.06.2012 , 10:35 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
You've clearly not played a sniper much, if at all, as they are the only class with a baseline aoe root. It's apparent you don't really know what you're talking about.

You also don't realize what your resolve change will do to healers. It will make it nearly impossible to kill them. Getting a healer to 30% and then hard stunning them is pretty much the only way they will die right now.

Your main issue seems to be that baddies aren't punished for spamming CCs. Well if we revert the resolve system to pre 1.4, baddies will once again be punished for spamming CCs. Problem solved.
the 30% thing only applies to operatives. any sage can be burned down simply by interrupting (counting stuns/mezzes for interrupts but the 30% thing is insignificant). as for mercs, it's a question of outlasting their shield. once you've forced them to use their shield, they are no different from sages. interrupt them a couple times and they die. operatives, however, have too strong 'non-cast' heals to do this with, and they get a massive buff at 30%

as for the QQ about roots adding to resolve, that would only balance out the fact that resolve fills 50% slower post 1.4. so yeah, ok. it adds to resolve. guess what? it takes more resolve to fill the bar anyway. and why in the hell should two snipers be able to 'chain root' a melee? btw, no, i haven't played a gs/sniper. but my main is a commando, and healing was far from my first choice. I know what it's like to not have any root at all. no interrupt. a lousy kb that only worked as an interrupt that built resolve. and here you have one of the best dcds in the game. another dcd that the entire raid can benefit from. a melee stun. a ranged stun/mezz (I think it's a ranged flash?). a root. and you wanna cry foul cuz you root might not always root someone? please. give my commando half the stuff you're playing with.

now snares and their necessity for sorcs...that I can empathize with. they need to slow you down and run away cuz they don't have the slew of dcds. I can't drum up the same sympathy for a gs/sniper and his root.
meh
Quote: Originally Posted by Jadescythe View Post
TL;DR Bolster is meant to help entry level players, ranked PvP is not entry level PvP.

JettrikRyflix's Avatar


JettrikRyflix
11.06.2012 , 11:13 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by Smashbrother View Post
And the TTK is perfectly fine for most classes. I have two healers. I can keep people alive plenty fine. In fact, when two equal teams play each other in RWZs, nobody ends up capping mid in CW, or south in NC, or get past first door in VS because teams can't kill players fast enough before they come running back.
This is such a good point. It's like the WZ matches are designed to have a gear imbalance. Every 10 matches or so, you get even teams, and this stalemate happens.

As for resolve - it sucked before, and it sucks even more now.
I played against a team that was really working their stuns today. I had a good healer on me, so I wasn't dying a whole lot, but I was stunned nearly constantly, and if I wasn't stunned, I was rooted. My resolve would build, I would have a white bar for a few seconds, take a couple swings at their healer, and then it was stun time again.
As a Sentinel, I spent 85% of the time trying to close the gap, and only 15% actually doing some damage.