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Juggernaut vs Assasssin tank

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes
Juggernaut vs Assasssin tank
 

hunterraaze's Avatar


hunterraaze
10.05.2012 , 09:35 PM | #1
I'm getting close to finishing up my DPS Merc, and want to roll a tank for my second alt. Because I already have a Merc, I don't want to rolling another BH. So, that leads the Juggernaut, and the Assassin. I will be focusing almost exclusively on PvE content, flashpoints when leveling up, ops when i'm at 50. I keep reading that tanking with the Jugg, is very hard and has a hard time holding aggro, is this the case? I'll be more so focusing on ops when I get to the right level. So which one is better for tanking on ops? Please no, do what you like, I can adapt prettty well with a certain playstyle, so I want to know what is the best for Flashpoint/Ops tanking.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
10.09.2012 , 09:31 AM | #2
Juggernauts do have a hard time holding agro. Their DPS (and TPS) ceiling is the lowest of the three tanks by a fair margin. Additionally, they lack the tools necessary to build threat from a 10 meter range, and so kiting is immensely difficult for them.

In trade though, they get the best "panic button" cooldowns in the game. A juggernaut can press a pair of buttons and be literally invincible for 12 seconds. Unfortunately, they can only do this once every 3 minutes, so the utility is somewhat reduced. Juggernauts also have very even mitigation. Their different statistical cases are all within a few percent of each other, so they take damage very steadily (modulo their self-heal, which is somewhat spiky).

Assassin tanks are, in many ways, the opposite. Assassins have the highest DPS (and TPS) ceiling of the three tanks, though they aren't *that* far ahead of Powertechs. They have a tremendous number of tools at their disposal which allow them to be extremely strong in a wide variety of scenarios. However, using those tools requires very precise timing and understanding of boss mechanics. A lot of the skill in playing an assassin tank at a high level is in understanding how your abilities interact with boss swing timers, knockbacks, movement phases, etc.

Assassins have very strong utility cooldowns on short timers, but they're hard to use properly as they are damage-type dependent. Assassins have extremely spiky mitigation, where the common case is quite good, the uncommon case is spectacular, and the slightly-less common case is abysmal. Overall, their survivability is the highest of the three tanks by a hair (when fully statted and min-maxed), but their effective HP is well below that of a Powertech (and only slightly above a Juggernaut).

Overall, I like my shadow tank a *lot*, and wouldn't trade him for any other class. It's not an easy tank to play well though. I spend a lot of time working on deeply understanding boss mechanics, thinking about ideal cooldown timings, and just watching my priority queue. This effort really pays off, but it does have a tendency to get a bit distracting. In the times where I have to direct the group or correct errors during a fight, I very rapidly degrade into the worst possible tank as my rotation flounders and I miss my timings.

If you want a class with an incredibly high skill ceiling, pick assassin. Juggernauts aren't bad as far as the skill ceiling goes, but assassins are really outstanding as long as you put in the effort to master the class.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dragonslayer on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (combat sentinel) Nimri (df scoundrel)
Averith (hybrid sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (jugg tank) Effek (ap powertech)

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
10.09.2012 , 07:00 PM | #3
I've got both an Assassin and Guardian (Jugg mirror) tank that both do endgame content. I really like both of them and I don't think 1 is inherently better in general but there are times when I think "Wow my other toon would have a much easier time with this". Now that isn't to say either one is taking too much damage or not holding enough threat (AoE aside but I'll get to that later), its more the utility and range differences. For Example:
- Rakghoul Behemoth is much easier on my Assassin thanks to the 10m Range.
- Annihilation Droid is much easier on my Guardian tanks to the leap and knockbacks, ditto for Vorgath
- NiM Jarg hurts a LOT on my Guardian but noticeably less on my Assassin thanks to increased range, self heal and higher ele/int resistance

While leveling, I found my Assassin felt really squishy until about level 35. Reason being you have no control over when your self heal goes off until you unlock Harnessed Darkness. Once you unlock Wither though, the game changes: huge AoE threat, self heal available roughly every 10 seconds and a 5% damage debuff on all enemies. This is also about the point you will get your healer companion, so its even easier. Comparatively, my Guardian felt pretty tanky from the get go. Courage and Cyclonic sweeps made Focus management (and group threat) a lot easier once they were unlocked but I never felt squishy.

In terms of TPS, my Guardian in full 61s can put out about 2.2k burst TPS (first 20 seconds) and about 1.6k sustained without using taunts. When my Assassin was in Tionese/Columi mix he was reaching 1.8k sustained with very little burst deviation. I do run a Hybrid build Guardian so my single target TPS is higher but my group threat is a bit lower.

In terms of skill cap on the classes. Assassin has a high skill cap in regards to survivability: managing a rotation that lets you use the self heal as frequently as possible, keeping Dark Ward up and they are able to use its CDs more pro-actively thanks to the short CDs. Guardians have a high skill cap in regards to mob control and threat: using leap -> push -> leap to position mobs (instead of a pull), keeping threat up, learning how to generate AoE threat and when to use taunt/AoE taunt. The only survivabilty skills a Guardian has to worry about are to use Blade Storm and Riposte on CD.

One thing to remember when comparing them: A bad Assassin tank dies, but a bad Jugg tank gets the party killed. That is where their reputations come from. Now a healer can cover a bad Assassin tank but no one can cover a bad Jugg so its more obvious if they are bad.

In terms of utility skills Guardian has:
- Leap
- Friendly Leap
- Push
- AoE mezz
- Enure to buy the healers time
- 2 universally great CDs

While the Assassin has:
- Stealth + CC
- Pull
- 2 situational great CDs and a self cleanse
- Speed
- AoE knock back

If you think you can handle learning to hold threat as a Jugg, I recommend it whole heartedly. From start to end you feel like a tank and its a really fun, fast and hectic playstyle. If not, play an Assassin and learn how to stay alive. I do find my Assassin to be less engaging in a long fight because most of it is just using 5 abilities and 2 CDs while Guardian is 8-10 depending on the fight.

Kanjir's Avatar


Kanjir
10.11.2012 , 06:40 AM | #4
Assassins are easier to be decent at, and holding threat is far easier. Guardian tanks have a higher skill cap and are harder to play well. They both have their uses and are both good - provided you can play them well.

sankalp's Avatar


sankalp
10.11.2012 , 08:39 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by Kanjir View Post
Assassins are easier to be decent at, and holding threat is far easier. Guardian tanks have a higher skill cap and are harder to play well. They both have their uses and are both good - provided you can play them well.
I dont agree. Infact I think it is the other way around.

As a sin tank, if you fail, you die. Although it needs only 5 abilities, there is no reason not to do more. I regularly use force slow and crushing darkness for fun. and use spike/electrocute on mobs. but this is mostly on faceroll fights.

I think assassins tanks are easy to get by with, but much harder to master.

FillionFan's Avatar


FillionFan
11.04.2012 , 10:08 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by sankalp View Post
I regularly use force slow and crushing darkness for fun. and use spike/electrocute on mobs. but this is mostly on faceroll fights.

I think assassins tanks are easy to get by with, but much harder to master.
Sounds like you just get bored and try to find stuff to do... How is that hard to master? lol

haksilence's Avatar


haksilence
11.04.2012 , 06:44 PM | #7
my main is a shadow tank named Jaberse on the Ebon Hawk. i can show you what a shadow tank should look like lol.

they have the highest mitigation potential as well as the single greatest CD on around a 31 second cool down in fights where your getting hit rapidly. although our armour is lowest out of the tanking classes we more than make up for it in mitigation stats. fully min maxed (before Dreadguard gear) im sitting at a 40.25% damage reduction 33.33% defence chance (which in all honesty, ive never seen anyone with higher in this stat) 66% shield chance (W/ kinetic ward) and a 60% absorbtion sitting at just shy of 25K HP.

all of this combined with a great defensive panic button on a very short cooldown make us incredibly versatile because although we may take a good deal of damage from force and tech attacks we can trn all that damage to 0 by one quick keystroke or mouse click. on top of everything we have the largest amount of consistent self healing (not absolutely positive on that so don't quote me).

in no way am i talking down the guardian, the guardian played very well and a shadow played very well are probably pretty damn close to equal and are suited for different tasks.

shadows make great main tanks and guardians make excelent off tanks for all their temps and "oh ****" buttons.

optimally if i were running a raid. i would prefer to have a guardian tank with me over any else.

grallmate's Avatar


grallmate
11.04.2012 , 07:32 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by haksilence View Post
my main is a shadow tank named Jaberse on the Ebon Hawk. i can show you what a shadow tank should look like lol.

they have the highest mitigation potential as well as the single greatest CD on around a 31 second cool down in fights where your getting hit rapidly. although our armour is lowest out of the tanking classes we more than make up for it in mitigation stats. fully min maxed (before Dreadguard gear) im sitting at a 40.25% damage reduction 33.33% defence chance (which in all honesty, ive never seen anyone with higher in this stat) 66% shield chance (W/ kinetic ward) and a 60% absorbtion sitting at just shy of 25K HP.

all of this combined with a great defensive panic button on a very short cooldown make us incredibly versatile because although we may take a good deal of damage from force and tech attacks we can trn all that damage to 0 by one quick keystroke or mouse click. on top of everything we have the largest amount of consistent self healing (not absolutely positive on that so don't quote me).

in no way am i talking down the guardian, the guardian played very well and a shadow played very well are probably pretty damn close to equal and are suited for different tasks.

shadows make great main tanks and guardians make excelent off tanks for all their temps and "oh ****" buttons.

optimally if i were running a raid. i would prefer to have a guardian tank with me over any else.
I agree that a Guardian & Shadow combo is the best tanking set up although I'd swap the Guardian in as MT and have the Shadow OT. Recent content however pretty much destroys the MT/OT distinction thanks to multiple bosses and repeated tank swaps.

In terms of your 33.33% Defense chance: stock Rakata Guardian gear has close to 40% Defense but needs to be itemized down.

In terms of CDs: Shadow have the best situationally useful CD in the game. Guardians have the best Universally useful ones. Enure is also better than Battle Readiness and Adrenalin Surge if you have a healer.
The Kae-Sare Legacy - The Harbinger
<Vindication> <Retribution>

Gralleh Grall'eh Khyar
Gralleh's Guide to Guardian Tanking [UPDATED for 2.0]

Darth_Bond's Avatar


Darth_Bond
11.06.2012 , 06:06 PM | #9
go jug, sin/shadow tanks are notorious for being squishy and spiky in terms of their hp.....you'll see healers leaving queues for hm fps when sin tanks pop up, its not a coincidence
Story is so important i sold starwars to disney and asked jj abrams to direct the new star wars film....and that is why we cant have faction change!

Darth_Precursor's Avatar


Darth_Precursor
11.06.2012 , 06:11 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Bond View Post
go jug, sin/shadow tanks are notorious for being squishy and spiky in terms of their hp.....you'll see healers leaving queues for hm fps when sin tanks pop up, its not a coincidence
As a Sin Tank, I disagree wholeheartedly.
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Chillum- Deception Assassin

<GOML>
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