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fix sin tanks


Darth_Bond's Avatar


Darth_Bond
11.06.2012 , 05:59 PM | #1
Theyre so squishy....was healing 16m tfb....the tanks hp is rather steady if theyre a jugg or powertech...but god help the healers when a sin tank shows up....the only time iv had a decent sin tank was when this guy in like i150lvl gear showed up with 29k hp.....other than that, i dislike healing sin tanks, so squishy....so spiky with their health...


do something bio

be creative....
Story is so important i sold starwars to disney and asked jj abrams to direct the new star wars film....and that is why we cant have faction change!

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
11.06.2012 , 08:31 PM | #2
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Bond View Post
Theyre so squishy....was healing 16m tfb....the tanks hp is rather steady if theyre a jugg or powertech...but gold help the healers when a sin tank shows up....the only time iv had a decent sin tank was when this guy in like i150lvl gear showed up with 29k hp.....other than that, i dislike hating sin tanks, so squishy....so spiky with their health...


do something bio

be creative....
Sounds like a L2P issue. Especially that sin with 29k health...
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Chaqen's Avatar


Chaqen
11.06.2012 , 09:07 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
Sounds like a L2P issue. Especially that sin with 29k health...
If you get lucky/creative with your gear optimization a sin can break 29k hp and still maintain 65% shield, 60 absorb, ~25% def.

To the OP sin tanks shouldnt be to squishy, they are a bit spiker then the others, but should require less overall healing then say a powertech.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.07.2012 , 12:20 AM | #4
It's a L2P issue, probably on the tank side, but possibly on the healer side. Here's what you need to know about assassin tanks:
  • They take more damage than other tanks
  • They require less healing than other tanks

Those two facts are not contradictory due to the self-heal mechanic, which is a form of active mitigation and usually where assassin tanks go wrong. There are four ways that assassin tanks tend to screw up:
  • Failing to refresh Dark Ward appropriately
  • Failing to manage Force (often by over-refreshing Dark Ward or spamming Thrash), resulting in delayed procs
  • Missing procs (or delaying their use), either due to poor rotation or oversight
  • Misapplication of cooldowns

An assassin who gets these things right (and is appropriately geared) will be golden, and you will never want to heal anything else. Nearly all assassins get these things wrong at least some of the time (including even the top progression assassins for which I've seen combat logs), and most assassins get them wrong all the time. The population of good assassin tanks is very, very low.

In as much as an assassin requires a high degree of skill and awareness to play at a high level, it also requires a high degree of skill and management from the healer. Most notably, you need to be aware of the self-heal mechanic. Don't ever top off your assassin tank unless you have time (and mana) to spare. When you do top them off, be very conscious of the fact that you have just overhealed by a significant margin. The ideal place for an assassin to sit is around 85-90% HP. Get them there, and leave them. You'll find that their health will drop…and then rise back up again. Don't panic when they take a large spike of damage. These are rare, and you'll have plenty of time to get them back to 90% before the next one. Use the self-heal to your advantage.

Also, be conscious of the fact that a well-played assassin is going to abuse the heck out of their cooldowns. If they see a spike coming that will cause you (the healer) grief, chances are they will negate it preemptively. If they find themselves uncomfortably low, odds are basically 100% that they will take measures appropriate to their current combat situation (i.e. popping the appropriate cooldown, kiting, adjusting rotation for higher self-healing at the expense of sustainability, etc). All of these things are tricks that good assassins can (and do!) play on a regular basis. If your assassin isn't/wasn't aware of how to do this (and more), then he's not a good assassin.

I wish I could say your experience healing an assassin tank was atypical. It's not. The sad truth is that nearly all assassins are awful. People are attracted to the class often because of its strengths in PvP (which also require tremendous skill to exploit) or because of its immensely high threat ceiling (which is honestly the easiest aspect of the class). They simply fail to realize or fully appreciate the depth and complexity associated with playing the class at a high level. As a healer, you pay the price.

Assassins aren't broken. To be frank, my hat is off to BioWare for the amazing job of balance that they did on all three of the tanks…especially assassins.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)

Darth_Bond's Avatar


Darth_Bond
11.07.2012 , 09:29 AM | #5
Yeah, i also have tanking characters, a jugg and a vanguard....iv always understood the role of tanking a bit differently than others, from wow


a tanks job is not to hold aggro

a tanks job is not to stay alive

a tanks job imo is to make the healers job/life easier.

thats what i always keep in mind whenever im tanking anything

this is probably because iv been healing for a good 10 years now, in different games, on different characters (first a rsham, then a priest, now an operative)
Story is so important i sold starwars to disney and asked jj abrams to direct the new star wars film....and that is why we cant have faction change!

BlznSmri's Avatar


BlznSmri
11.07.2012 , 10:07 AM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Darth_Bond View Post
Yeah, i also have tanking characters, a jugg and a vanguard....iv always understood the role of tanking a bit differently than others, from wow


a tanks job is not to hold aggro

a tanks job is not to stay alive

a tanks job imo is to make the healers job/life easier.

thats what i always keep in mind whenever im tanking anything

this is probably because iv been healing for a good 10 years now, in different games, on different characters (first a rsham, then a priest, now an operative)
A tank's job is to do all of that.

They're supposed to mitigate as much damage as possible (i.e. stay alive and make the healer's jobs easier), and maintain aggro (holding aggro + making the healer's job easier).

If a tank's not holding aggro then your group will fail. If your tank has low damage mitigation and doesn't cycle defensives properly, your group will fail.

Conversely if the healers can't adapt to the situations and keep the group up, then you will obviously fail.
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ErosGyne's Avatar


ErosGyne
11.07.2012 , 10:30 AM | #7
Well, they nerf that tank because of the PVP whiners,(nerf armor and the self-heal) and broke it in PVE, the self heal dont come close do help when it can be hit 6k on TFB HM.
Dark Ward? the last boss can take out 5 of then in one hit, if you are unlucky, 2 hit and you are out,sure in that time you dont take alot of damage but after the abilitie is still on CD,and you get hit hard, if the other tank was some kind of debuff and cant take it from you?, well no choice beside take the damage and hope you dont die,after that you need a realy good healer to keep you and your group up.
sure you can tank all end game, with more or less problems, but if ppl have a choice, sin\shadows are the last tank any group want to take

Darth_Bond's Avatar


Darth_Bond
11.07.2012 , 10:34 AM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by BlznSmri View Post
A tank's job is to do all of that.

They're supposed to mitigate as much damage as possible (i.e. stay alive and make the healer's jobs easier), and maintain aggro (holding aggro + making the healer's job easier).

If a tank's not holding aggro then your group will fail. If your tank has low damage mitigation and doesn't cycle defensives properly, your group will fail.

Conversely if the healers can't adapt to the situations and keep the group up, then you will obviously fail.
yes a tank is supposed to do all of that, but a tanks PRIORITY is to first make the healers job easier. holding aggro and not dying is a GIVEN, without that you cant even be called a tank, but thats what seperates a good tank from the rest.
Story is so important i sold starwars to disney and asked jj abrams to direct the new star wars film....and that is why we cant have faction change!

wetslampigduex's Avatar


wetslampigduex
11.07.2012 , 10:46 AM | #9
The Sin was def not geared right if that is the case. I have both an assassin and a PT the PT is slightly better geared and my assassin takes less dmg than the PT. Recently i've noticed in increase of sin's that think jacking there shield chance up over 70% is the way to go. However it most def not.. a Sin gets his procs off of shield or a miss/dodge/parry . Defense is a stat that sins need. Light armor... Dodging an incoming attack is more helpful than shielding one compared to the other tanks that have a much higher armor rating which mitigates more of the dmg. Wanna say my dmg reduction on my PT is roughly 13-17% higher than the sin.

So imo its probably not a L2P issue. More of a L2Gear issue at least from what i've seen.

KeyboardNinja's Avatar


KeyboardNinja
11.07.2012 , 10:50 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by ErosGyne View Post
Well, they nerf that tank because of the PVP whiners,(nerf armor and the self-heal) and broke it in PVE, the self heal dont come close do help when it can be hit 6k on TFB HM.
The 1.3 changes were a nerf, but only because assassin/shadow tanks were so over-powered prior to the patch. I have the numbers to back it up; assassin/shadow tanks were vastly beyond the other two tanks in terms of overall survivability. The nerf brought them back into line.

The self-heal is a lot better than you think it is. As for those 6k hits… Technically, TFB HM has the following damage profile:
  • Tentacle Slap – 800 (very frequent)
  • Tentacle Slam – 7.8k (infrequent)
  • Monsterous Swipe – 2k (moderately frequent)
  • Phasic Spittle – 8.5k (infrequent; so much so as to be negated by a cooldown)

I see nothing in there that really concerns me. The slam is the worst offender, but it happens with sufficient infrequency that it's not really cause for alarm. TFB HM is actually a very low damage boss if you're doing it right, not unlike all of the other bosses in current content. Fun fact: bosses in Nightmare KP hit harder than anything in HM EC/TFB by nearly 40%.
Computer Programmer. Theory Crafter. Dilettante on The Ebon Hawk.
Tam (shadow tank) Tov-ren (commando healer) Aveo (retired sentinel) Nimri (ruffian scoundrel)
Averith (marksman sniper) Alish (lightning sorcerer) Aresham (vengeance jugg) Effek (pyro pt)