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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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xxIncubixx's Avatar


xxIncubixx
11.03.2012 , 06:37 AM | #121
Quote: Originally Posted by truchaos View Post
You can already spec into this effect as a merc/mando- or do you want to take away a unique facet of the healing tree?
so? they should make static barrier make you uninterruptable with 5 stacks and cant be force charged (it would be like a small cover system). Concussive charge, should root instead of slow, and return the knockback to stockstrike with root. and then needs a slow somewhere as a base line skill, like gunslinger, and gg the class is fixed.

cashogy's Avatar


cashogy
11.03.2012 , 09:59 AM | #122
Quote: Originally Posted by xxIncubixx View Post
so? they should make static barrier make you uninterruptable with 5 stacks and cant be force charged (it would be like a small cover system). Concussive charge, should root instead of slow, and return the knockback to stockstrike with root. and then needs a slow somewhere as a base line skill, like gunslinger, and gg the class is fixed.
honestly i would rather have Merc have some unique mechanics. if i wanted to play a sniper, i would have rolled one.

we are asking for Merc to finally be made effective, not for it to be made into a sniper that uses 2 pistols instead of a rifle.

now that i think about it, why not change the Muzzle Fluting box in the Arsenal tree from .5s cast reduction to 2s cast reduction? this would have the least impact on DPS spec'd mercs, as they should all have that box regardless of spec, and Tracer Missile and Power Shot would both become instants. now, i do think that Tracer Missile damage would have to be toned down again with this (as it as a Tech attack and not subject to defensive rolls), but Heatseeker missile should get an equal damage buff to keep overall dps output the same. I think a 20% damage decrease to Tracer Missile, and a 20% damage increase to Heatseeker Missiles would balance that out well.

heechJunzi's Avatar


heechJunzi
11.03.2012 , 10:54 AM | #123
Played 5-6 ranked matches yesterday on my commando. Won 3-4 against pugs, lost twice (close games) to a decent guild team. Led in damage / killing blows in most matches. Solo-killed/capped a turret in Civil War against geared sniper (from guild team). We actually had 2 pyro commandos for a while.

Honestly, I'd never complain to see a buff for the class... but it's hard for me to argue I need it. Buff arsenal if really necessary, but assault is fine.
Junzi - EWH Sentinel Buxi - EWH Commando Jünzi - EWH Operative
----------- The Harbinger -----------

Jherad's Avatar


Jherad
11.03.2012 , 11:37 AM | #124
Quote: Originally Posted by heechJunzi View Post
Played 5-6 ranked matches yesterday on my commando. Won 3-4 against pugs, lost twice (close games) to a decent guild team. Led in damage / killing blows in most matches. Solo-killed/capped a turret in Civil War against geared sniper (from guild team). We actually had 2 pyro commandos for a while.

Honestly, I'd never complain to see a buff for the class... but it's hard for me to argue I need it. Buff arsenal if really necessary, but assault is fine.
Glad you had fun - but in essence what you're saying is that you can beat pugs. Which is what any skilled commando has been saying all along. Pugs don't suddenly become better when they queue for RWZs.

Any 'good' guild RWZ group wouldn't have let you kill a turret guard and solo cap a node, no matter what class you were.
WFW - Waiting For Wildstar
Zacharïah - Commando / Chasso - Merc
Youtube / Twitch
2.4 is the PvP Patch! ... J/K, Removing RWZs trolololol

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
11.03.2012 , 11:56 AM | #125
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Glad you had fun - but in essence what you're saying is that you can beat pugs. Which is what any skilled commando has been saying all along. Pugs don't suddenly become better when they queue for RWZs.

Any 'good' guild RWZ group wouldn't have let you kill a turret guard and solo cap a node, no matter what class you were.
\

Lol, this. We don't care if you can kill bad players; anyone can do that. You wouldn't have been able to cap that turret against a competent team. They also would have been on you like white on rice all game.

By the way:

Quote: Originally Posted by heechJunzi View Post
We actually had 2 pyro commandos for a while.
u wot m8?
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

AsiriusNazriel's Avatar


AsiriusNazriel
11.03.2012 , 12:23 PM | #126
Quote: Originally Posted by heechJunzi View Post
Played 5-6 ranked matches yesterday on my commando. Won 3-4 against pugs, lost twice (close games) to a decent guild team. Led in damage / killing blows in most matches. Solo-killed/capped a turret in Civil War against geared sniper (from guild team). We actually had 2 pyro commandos for a while.

Honestly, I'd never complain to see a buff for the class... but it's hard for me to argue I need it. Buff arsenal if really necessary, but assault is fine.
Nice!

Competent player > Incompetent player.

I've seen some stacked PUGs on my server, so it all depends on who's running with who and the level of communication. Hell, we'll run premades of 4 different guilds and it'll look like a pug, but we dominate.

Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly. In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well. The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.
Pax Imperius & Pax Dominus
Arash a.k.a. "Chuck Norris of PVP"

Doomsdaycomes's Avatar


Doomsdaycomes
11.03.2012 , 01:05 PM | #127
Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
Nice!

Competent player > Incompetent player.

I've seen some stacked PUGs on my server, so it all depends on who's running with who and the level of communication. Hell, we'll run premades of 4 different guilds and it'll look like a pug, but we dominate..
Ugh, I thought we went over this. The people here aren't saying "Weak class, I can'ts killz nothin' so it's got to be the class!" Some of us here are top commando/merc players on our server, or atleast have decent track records. The reason we (and BW agreed) say commando needs some work, is because we also play other toons. Other toons, other specs, other roles, etc... Comparing between our toons, we've all found that on the dps Merc/Commando, we are always the least effective.

It's not "Can't kill that guy, must be my class." It's "Sure I can kill people/defend/assault/dance... but I can do it much better on any other toon/spec."

Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly. In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.

Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well. The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.
Now, I'll ignore for the moment that you're a non-merc/commando telling players how to play their classes.

Dps Mercs are -not- a support role class. I mentioned this earlier when I explained support. Any dps can "support" another dps. Let one take point, the other follow, etc... But why have 1 strong dps and 1 weak one, when you could just have two strong dps? A maurader and a merc could team up (merc supporting the maurader), but the team would be better off with a maurader being "supported" by a sniper. The sniper will have better survivability, be harder to lock down, won't have to rely on "hugging corners" and even has a team defense buff.

A support class/role must be something that acts as a force multiplier for the team. If you look back through my posts you'll see I've explained this, but I'll recap.

A healer is a force multiplier. Alone, they're only really worth .75 of a unit, easy prey for a dps (our whole 1 unit). However, a healer adds .25 effectiveness to any unit around them. So in 2 vs 2, the healer is .75 effective while their companion is 1+.25 effective, or a solid 2 vs 2. In 3 vs 3, it's (.75+1.25+1.25) 3.25 vs. 3... etc...

A tank works much the same way, except I'd say they actually decrease the effectiveness of the enemy. Once again let's say a tank is .75 of a unit by itself. Has survivability, but little damage and it's support to a team is useless 1 vs 1. Throw them on a team though, and they start decreasing the enemies effectivenss by .25, 2 vs. 2 is (.75+1) 1.75 vs. 1.75 (1+1-.25). 3 is (.75+1+1) 2.75 vs. 2.5 (1+1+1-.5) and onward.

Now, a dps merc has no force multiplier. If they are left alone to dish out damage it is because of an idiot opposing team, not because the player or class has actually done anything. Dps Mercs are not designed to heal, buff, protect, or debuff. They are not designed to fill any sort of support ability. If they were, their off-heals would be better and less costly, or their heat signatures would provide +% damage to all damage on the target.

So... not trying to be rude (we've had differences before) but please explain how you figure a Merc/Commando is simply being played wrong, and their suppose to be "support" without any actual support abilities? Why take one as "support dps" when the role can be filled more effectively by a sniper?

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
11.03.2012 , 01:22 PM | #128
Quote: Originally Posted by AsiriusNazriel View Post
Nice!

Competent player > Incompetent player.
Look up Confirmation bias, I think you suffer from it.

Quote:
Mercs are support role class, people aren't playing them correctly.
Says who? You?

They're relegated to a support role due to their terrible current design. I've never heard a SWTOR Dev state Mercs are suppose to be a support class. If they're a support class, where's our support utility? It's non-existant. You can claim we're a support class all you want, but if we're going to be a support class, then where's our support capabilities? How do we support better than any other class? We don't.

Quote:
In good hands like yours, they can be absolutely devastating and Pyro Mercs are very viable. I have a guildie who runs it and he tops the DPS charts as well.
You have no idea who this guy is, he makes one post in favor of Mercs and he's your new best buddy.

No one said Mercs can't top the DPS charts (which are somewhat irrelevant as this is an objective-based PvP game). It's easy to top DPS charts when you're being ignored. The guy even said he faced pugs, who were likely terrible.

Quote:
Arsenal has it's own issues, but I've seen Arsenal players do extremely well.
Against bad players? Sure. Arsenal spec is the easiest spec to shut down in this entire game; by saying you've seen them do well, you're pretty much admitting they're playing against bad players. If you're admitting that they do well against you, then that says more about you than them.

Quote:
The problem is that they think that they should act like a rotating turret. It needs to be a TM TM TM, move, railshot on the go, Proc'd Unload. The more mobile you can make yourself, the more effective you become. Hug corners. Little things like that.
Regardless of how much movement you want to toss into the mix, Arsenal is an incredibly immobile class. The fact is, they're dependent upon TM and Unload casts, which are easily interrupted. You can throw a sticky/railshot on the go, but outside of that, you're not doing much.

The class is messed up as a whole; pyro spec is slightly more viable, but it's not nearly as good on a Merc as it is a Pyrotech. I think you have a problem admitting that Mercs are in a bad spot. Do you still feel accomplished when you kill them? If you do, you shouldn't.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

heechJunzi's Avatar


heechJunzi
11.03.2012 , 01:26 PM | #129
Quote: Originally Posted by Jherad View Post
Glad you had fun - but in essence what you're saying is that you can beat pugs. Which is what any skilled commando has been saying all along. Pugs don't suddenly become better when they queue for RWZs.

Any 'good' guild RWZ group wouldn't have let you kill a turret guard and solo cap a node, no matter what class you were.
That's actually not what I said. The solo kill was against the guild team. The guild in question isn't top tier, but at least middle tier. Long established, respected,,highly geared. If I was rolling with my regular crew, I think we would've won those two matches... but we had to pug our healers, including a sage in mostly BM.

Your point basically comes down to: commandos aren't competitive against good teams/players, and therefore ipso facto, if as a commando you beat a player/team, they must not have been very good. That's nice. All I can say that I could've been playing as my EWH sentinel, and I don't think I would've helped any more than I did as commando.
Junzi - EWH Sentinel Buxi - EWH Commando Jünzi - EWH Operative
----------- The Harbinger -----------

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
11.03.2012 , 01:27 PM | #130
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
Ugh, I thought we went over this. The people here aren't saying "Weak class, I can'ts killz nothin' so it's got to be the class!" Some of us here are top commando/merc players on our server, or atleast have decent track records. The reason we (and BW agreed) say commando needs some work, is because we also play other toons. Other toons, other specs, other roles, etc... Comparing between our toons, we've all found that on the dps Merc/Commando, we are always the least effective.

It's not "Can't kill that guy, must be my class." It's "Sure I can kill people/defend/assault/dance... but I can do it much better on any other toon/spec."
Don't try to reason with him, it's obviously in one ear and out the other. Obviously it's us and not the class.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman