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The Trooper's Rank

First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

TheLoneSage's Avatar


TheLoneSage
10.29.2012 , 07:55 PM | #41
I find all of this seriously ridiculous.

The Trooper story was written to emulate the ICONIC REPUBLIC TROOPER SF. I do not see how hard this is to understand.

The story, writers, and Lucas Arts as a whole has no intention of copying the military ranks of society, nor do they care. The only goal for this story, remotely, was to tell a Republic Trooper story that fans would recognize from the movies and enjoy. This is a space opera, not a historical-fiction story.

Sith in the Empire have complete and utter superiority over Non-Sith in society and the military. However, the Imperial Guard is completely independent of the Sith and anyone over the rank of Major can easily say 'no' to a Sith. If the Sith would kill that Major for 'defiance', he would be executed. The Imperial Guard operate under law of the Emperor himself, so the Sith have no control over them. (Which is why on many planets, your Sith character will take direct orders from a Imperial Guard Commander.) But you're suppose to be superior to everyone, remember? In a society ruled by Sith, for Sith.

See how nothing makes sense?

It's Star Wars. Get over it.
Who's my favorite Villain from the game?
Myself of course.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.30.2012 , 09:22 AM | #42
Umm the first part of your arguement...ok you said no.

The second part completely different from your opening statement. By the time i was done all i could say was W.....T.....F???

Why start out with the whole Iconic republic SF then switch to the sith troopers like that has ANYTHING to do with the story and the half-a**ed chain of command they hand us.

The story overall, is actually a good story. There were just so many gaps and holes in the story that it just made me scratch my head and wonder who wrote it. Yes i get the point that it's SW. But there are simple principals that even STAR WARS in the OT followed. Hell in ROTJ during the briefing for the Death Star, you see Generals, squadron leaders, staffers etc. Hell read the Rogue Squadron book "Solo Command". Han Solo doesn't command and run Mon Remoda by himself. He has a COMMAND STAFF.

Again, story got it about 66% right IMO, they just missed out on key things that make ANY military [fantasy or not] a military. Has nothing to do with making it a carbon copy of RL forces, it's how armies function, plain and simple.

Again skipping over simple principles and calling it fantasy/syfy just to cover up BAD WRITING.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquisitor, Smuggler

CharlesBoyd's Avatar


CharlesBoyd
10.30.2012 , 01:38 PM | #43 This is the last staff post in this thread.  
Things have been getting a little heated in this thread and while I don't mind critiques of my work (that's what this forum is for!), everyone should try to remain civil while discussing such critiques.

With that being said, I'm happy to give a little insight into our thinking when we developed the Trooper story, and the interactions with General Garza in particular. As with the rest of the game, evoking the spirit of the films was the top priority; and in the films, the protagonists almost always receive their military-style briefings from generals or equivalently high-ranking individuals. In A New Hope, General Dodonna briefs Red and Gold squadrons directly; in Return of the Jedi, the squadron commanders and ground teams are briefed by General Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma. Leia gives Rogue Squadron their briefing in Empire Strikes Back; I can't recall what exact rank Leia carries at that point in the story, but she and General Rieekan seem to treat each other more or less as equals, so Leia certainly carries a lot of responsibility regardless. All of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars regularly lead and give orders to individual clone squads.

I never interpreted these scenes as indicating that there are no chains of command or support staff anywhere in the galaxy far, far away; we just don't see them because they're not dramatically relevant. Watching Mon Mothma's directives filter down to Admiral Ackbar and General Madine, then down to their subordinate officers, and so on wouldn't fit the films' storytelling style.

So, we adjust things in order to achieve those same dramatic goals. Havoc Squad is designated as a special, elite team with a huge amount of operational freedom, reporting directly to General Garza instead of running through the normal chain of command like the rest of the Republic military. This allows the Trooper to have a single "command" character to develop their thoughts and reactions to over the whole course of the plot; it allows the Trooper to have a personal ship and take it anywhere they want; it allows the Trooper to take on any side quest at any time, rather than calling to secure approval to operate outside of given mission objectives; and basically glosses over all of the many, many other realistic aspects of military life that don't fit with the get-to-the-drama pacing of Star Wars and the gameplay requirements of our design.

I'm certainly not here to tell you that you're wrong for finding these things unrealistic or unenjoyable. But everything we do is done for a reason.

TalonVII's Avatar


TalonVII
10.31.2012 , 10:40 AM | #44
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
Things have been getting a little heated in this thread and while I don't mind critiques of my work (that's what this forum is for!), everyone should try to remain civil while discussing such critiques.

With that being said, I'm happy to give a little insight into our thinking when we developed the Trooper story, and the interactions with General Garza in particular. As with the rest of the game, evoking the spirit of the films was the top priority; and in the films, the protagonists almost always receive their military-style briefings from generals or equivalently high-ranking individuals. In A New Hope, General Dodonna briefs Red and Gold squadrons directly; in Return of the Jedi, the squadron commanders and ground teams are briefed by General Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma. Leia gives Rogue Squadron their briefing in Empire Strikes Back; I can't recall what exact rank Leia carries at that point in the story, but she and General Rieekan seem to treat each other more or less as equals, so Leia certainly carries a lot of responsibility regardless. All of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars regularly lead and give orders to individual clone squads.

I never interpreted these scenes as indicating that there are no chains of command or support staff anywhere in the galaxy far, far away; we just don't see them because they're not dramatically relevant. Watching Mon Mothma's directives filter down to Admiral Ackbar and General Madine, then down to their subordinate officers, and so on wouldn't fit the films' storytelling style.

So, we adjust things in order to achieve those same dramatic goals. Havoc Squad is designated as a special, elite team with a huge amount of operational freedom, reporting directly to General Garza instead of running through the normal chain of command like the rest of the Republic military. This allows the Trooper to have a single "command" character to develop their thoughts and reactions to over the whole course of the plot; it allows the Trooper to have a personal ship and take it anywhere they want; it allows the Trooper to take on any side quest at any time, rather than calling to secure approval to operate outside of given mission objectives; and basically glosses over all of the many, many other realistic aspects of military life that don't fit with the get-to-the-drama pacing of Star Wars and the gameplay requirements of our design.

I'm certainly not here to tell you that you're wrong for finding these things unrealistic or unenjoyable. But everything we do is done for a reason.
I get what you are saying. But again it just felt OFF. Yes General Dodanna briefed red and gold squadrons. But that was an extreme situation, again with Leia briefing Rogue duirng the evac. There really wasn't time for a solid briefing.

But on ROTJ, that was actually a good look at how a military chain of command big briefing works. You see that the General Madine and Admiral ackbar was addressing the senior commanders and squadron leaders of the fleet. But you notice something else. Other staffers and officers. Not just 1 general breifing a LT as when you first arrive on Courscant.

I guess what I'm driving at is that you don't see a COMMAND staff for Garza. It made it seem like she does it all alone. That just doesn't work with the kind of duties she has. I mean greeting you when you get to courscant, I can see that. But like when you arrive at a planet, does the General REALLY need to brief you on every planet.

Look at the IA. Keeper only briefs you on the MAJOR important stuff. Everything else, handed to a staffer IE Watcher Two.

Now for say the Guantlet when you first meet the supreme commander cause of the importance, yes the general would be there, that was handled to the T.

But say going to Hoth just to pick up a member of the team, again I don't see the relevance of Garza herself giving the briefing.

I hope you see what I am driving at.
Pretty, so what do we blow up first? -Wraith Squadron Motto
Ebon Hawk
Skiratta Legacy
Finished: Trooper, Agent, Knight, Inquisitor, Smuggler

LarenDahe's Avatar


LarenDahe
10.31.2012 , 12:26 PM | #45
Aren't you just discounting the probability that General Garza is simply very hands on with the most important operations in the field? Havoc Squad is supposed to be the best unit under her command for story purposes. She commands Special Forces, played a key role in it's founding, it doesn't seem odd for her to be in the middle of things. What else is General Garza going to be doing if not interacting with her top team while it's doing some seriously important missions throughout the game?

Chapter One obviously requires her personal attention. And supposedly a lot of people joined along in that on the wrong side, so one has to wonder how many teams are left anyway. Regardless, you basically prove yourself even more in Chapter One and reaffirm her decision to make you Commander of Havoc.

Chapter Two, consdering it technically would violate the Treaty of Coruscant I think it's fair to say a decent chunk of the Republic government prefers to keep the Treaty intact and not goad the Empire.

Finally, Chapter which I'm rusty on considering I haven't seen it since I leveled up with a friend doing Commando and I personally did it in Beta, meh... at this point again, it's her top team and she's proven herself from the very beginning to be hands on. It's not hard to spare time for a holo call to give out your orders.

Now beyond that, you have a strong female character that Commands the Republic's best, why make this awesome character and give her a lower position just so you don't complain about her interacting with you? Why create another character to play middle man?

In the end my best advise is: Stop working yourself up and enjoy the story. There are some people I know who won't enjoy a good story in a movie and just sit there going "That'd never happen, that'd never work" ... that's no fun to be around. If you want some really bad writing, I recommend Guild Wars 2.
Don't Panic!!

BanPearson's Avatar


BanPearson
10.31.2012 , 01:43 PM | #46
hello,
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
Things have been getting a little heated in this thread and while I don't mind critiques of my work (that's what this forum is for!), everyone should try to remain civil while discussing such critiques.

With that being said, I'm happy to give a little insight into our thinking when we developed the Trooper story, and the interactions with General Garza in particular. As with the rest of the game, evoking the spirit of the films was the top priority; and in the films, the protagonists almost always receive their military-style briefings from generals or equivalently high-ranking individuals. In A New Hope, General Dodonna briefs Red and Gold squadrons directly; in Return of the Jedi, the squadron commanders and ground teams are briefed by General Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma. Leia gives Rogue Squadron their briefing in Empire Strikes Back; I can't recall what exact rank Leia carries at that point in the story, but she and General Rieekan seem to treat each other more or less as equals, so Leia certainly carries a lot of responsibility regardless. All of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars regularly lead and give orders to individual clone squads.

I never interpreted these scenes as indicating that there are no chains of command or support staff anywhere in the galaxy far, far away; we just don't see them because they're not dramatically relevant. Watching Mon Mothma's directives filter down to Admiral Ackbar and General Madine, then down to their subordinate officers, and so on wouldn't fit the films' storytelling style.

So, we adjust things in order to achieve those same dramatic goals. Havoc Squad is designated as a special, elite team with a huge amount of operational freedom, reporting directly to General Garza instead of running through the normal chain of command like the rest of the Republic military. This allows the Trooper to have a single "command" character to develop their thoughts and reactions to over the whole course of the plot; it allows the Trooper to have a personal ship and take it anywhere they want; it allows the Trooper to take on any side quest at any time, rather than calling to secure approval to operate outside of given mission objectives; and basically glosses over all of the many, many other realistic aspects of military life that don't fit with the get-to-the-drama pacing of Star Wars and the gameplay requirements of our design.

I'm certainly not here to tell you that you're wrong for finding these things unrealistic or unenjoyable. But everything we do is done for a reason.
I have a huge problem with the concept of class quests in general. That they are very linear and choices don't matter, and the player always is the big hero there, which is a contradiction to the world as a hole. I mean, there are hundreds of thousands of Havoc squad leaders in the world (as many as there are SWTOR players who played the trooper class story), which makes no sense. One essential rule in role playing is not to try to play the big super-hero/defeater of the emperor or whatever, and that means for role players that they have to think of their class quest as a whole different game with a different person than anything else they do while role playing with others or doing OPs. Just to make clear where I stand on the class quest concept in swtor in general.

But within these given limitations, you did a great job on the trooper story. Someone who picks a trooper will certainly expect and want a little (!!!) less Star Wars than a Jedi Knight player, and a tiny little dose of Mass Effect to fill that hole. It's a wonderful story, every bit of it, and the logical problems that have been pointed out are true, but they were necessary to fit it in the general class quest line concept. Well done! And I played it twice, even though I have only 3 characters.

planet_J's Avatar


planet_J
10.31.2012 , 02:06 PM | #47
Quote: Originally Posted by TalonVII View Post
I get what you are saying. But again it just felt OFF. Yes General Dodanna briefed red and gold squadrons. But that was an extreme situation, again with Leia briefing Rogue duirng the evac. There really wasn't time for a solid briefing.

But on ROTJ, that was actually a good look at how a military chain of command big briefing works. You see that the General Madine and Admiral ackbar was addressing the senior commanders and squadron leaders of the fleet. But you notice something else. Other staffers and officers. Not just 1 general breifing a LT as when you first arrive on Courscant.

I guess what I'm driving at is that you don't see a COMMAND staff for Garza. It made it seem like she does it all alone. That just doesn't work with the kind of duties she has. I mean greeting you when you get to courscant, I can see that. But like when you arrive at a planet, does the General REALLY need to brief you on every planet.

Look at the IA. Keeper only briefs you on the MAJOR important stuff. Everything else, handed to a staffer IE Watcher Two.

Now for say the Guantlet when you first meet the supreme commander cause of the importance, yes the general would be there, that was handled to the T.

But say going to Hoth just to pick up a member of the team, again I don't see the relevance of Garza herself giving the briefing.

I hope you see what I am driving at.
The writer himself steps in to say basically..."this is why we did it this way...so drop it..." and you're arguing with him?

I was in the NSA and served as a civilian analyst and field officer...want to know about high ranking briefings knowledge? I am certain I have seen far more than you have...it's off a tad for streamlining purposes...BUT NOT THAT BADLY. I think you would argue with a brickwall over the color of the bricks!

DROP. IT. ALREADY.

This thread needs someone to put a bullet in it and end the misery.

Costello's Avatar


Costello
10.31.2012 , 03:07 PM | #48
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
Things have been getting a little heated in this thread and while I don't mind critiques of my work (that's what this forum is for!), everyone should try to remain civil while discussing such critiques.

With that being said, I'm happy to give a little insight into our thinking when we developed the Trooper story, and the interactions with General Garza in particular. As with the rest of the game, evoking the spirit of the films was the top priority; and in the films, the protagonists almost always receive their military-style briefings from generals or equivalently high-ranking individuals. In A New Hope, General Dodonna briefs Red and Gold squadrons directly; in Return of the Jedi, the squadron commanders and ground teams are briefed by General Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma. Leia gives Rogue Squadron their briefing in Empire Strikes Back; I can't recall what exact rank Leia carries at that point in the story, but she and General Rieekan seem to treat each other more or less as equals, so Leia certainly carries a lot of responsibility regardless. All of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars regularly lead and give orders to individual clone squads.

I never interpreted these scenes as indicating that there are no chains of command or support staff anywhere in the galaxy far, far away; we just don't see them because they're not dramatically relevant. Watching Mon Mothma's directives filter down to Admiral Ackbar and General Madine, then down to their subordinate officers, and so on wouldn't fit the films' storytelling style.

So, we adjust things in order to achieve those same dramatic goals. Havoc Squad is designated as a special, elite team with a huge amount of operational freedom, reporting directly to General Garza instead of running through the normal chain of command like the rest of the Republic military. This allows the Trooper to have a single "command" character to develop their thoughts and reactions to over the whole course of the plot; it allows the Trooper to have a personal ship and take it anywhere they want; it allows the Trooper to take on any side quest at any time, rather than calling to secure approval to operate outside of given mission objectives; and basically glosses over all of the many, many other realistic aspects of military life that don't fit with the get-to-the-drama pacing of Star Wars and the gameplay requirements of our design.

I'm certainly not here to tell you that you're wrong for finding these things unrealistic or unenjoyable. But everything we do is done for a reason.
Its not even a matter of unreleastic. My trooper did everything wrong, spoke back to the general in every option (except when I got bored of the story and just spaced bar through picking companion + options). Yet cause its the same CO all the way through its all ignored even to the point where murder is ignored. You can't get rid of her you can't get a transfer you can't get anything even when its clear you hate her and don't want anything to do with her.

Equally how has she avoided dark side corruption? Minor point but no one in the entire republic has dark side corruption no matter what they do yet my trooper looks like a walking corspe. At some point the story becomes so pointless as nothing you say or do matters and you get stuff with a CO who some people may like some may hate. It would have been nice if you screwed her over enough you could have got a transfer to a better officer.

Antiskeptic's Avatar


Antiskeptic
10.31.2012 , 03:12 PM | #49
Quote: Originally Posted by CharlesBoyd View Post
Things have been getting a little heated in this thread and while I don't mind critiques of my work (that's what this forum is for!), everyone should try to remain civil while discussing such critiques.

With that being said, I'm happy to give a little insight into our thinking when we developed the Trooper story, and the interactions with General Garza in particular. As with the rest of the game, evoking the spirit of the films was the top priority; and in the films, the protagonists almost always receive their military-style briefings from generals or equivalently high-ranking individuals. In A New Hope, General Dodonna briefs Red and Gold squadrons directly; in Return of the Jedi, the squadron commanders and ground teams are briefed by General Madine, Admiral Ackbar, and Mon Mothma. Leia gives Rogue Squadron their briefing in Empire Strikes Back; I can't recall what exact rank Leia carries at that point in the story, but she and General Rieekan seem to treat each other more or less as equals, so Leia certainly carries a lot of responsibility regardless. All of the Jedi Generals in the Clone Wars regularly lead and give orders to individual clone squads.

I never interpreted these scenes as indicating that there are no chains of command or support staff anywhere in the galaxy far, far away; we just don't see them because they're not dramatically relevant. Watching Mon Mothma's directives filter down to Admiral Ackbar and General Madine, then down to their subordinate officers, and so on wouldn't fit the films' storytelling style.

So, we adjust things in order to achieve those same dramatic goals. Havoc Squad is designated as a special, elite team with a huge amount of operational freedom, reporting directly to General Garza instead of running through the normal chain of command like the rest of the Republic military. This allows the Trooper to have a single "command" character to develop their thoughts and reactions to over the whole course of the plot; it allows the Trooper to have a personal ship and take it anywhere they want; it allows the Trooper to take on any side quest at any time, rather than calling to secure approval to operate outside of given mission objectives; and basically glosses over all of the many, many other realistic aspects of military life that don't fit with the get-to-the-drama pacing of Star Wars and the gameplay requirements of our design.

I'm certainly not here to tell you that you're wrong for finding these things unrealistic or unenjoyable. But everything we do is done for a reason.
I very much enjoyed the storyline and think you did a good job with it.

Special units answering to people in high places is not unheard of. I've seen many a stories use this concept and I think you did a good job with it.
//

Slurmez's Avatar


Slurmez
10.31.2012 , 03:16 PM | #50
I have no problem with black ops cells operating outside of the normal chain of command, thats pretty much standard in everyones army.

However I would say the trooper storyline was pretty weak and not enjoyable when compared to every other class quest.