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Please address lack of balance between DPS specs

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Please address lack of balance between DPS specs
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Wraiven's Avatar


Wraiven
10.29.2012 , 07:15 PM | #191
Quote: Originally Posted by Huobes View Post
Ok, I also just took a deeper look into these pages upon pages of parses on all these sites that some of you are referencing as gospel. Aaaand...you might want to slow your roll there.

I started at torparse, thanks to the link provided earlier. There are really not that many pares there. I took a look at the TFB final boss fight, and under 16M HM there are only 22 and 16 parses posted for DPS and HPS, respectively. Switching over to 8M, there is indeed a Top 50. However, the difference between the top (legitimate) parse and the 50th is 264 DPS (1711 - 1447). Obviously, with values so spread out, this is the Top 50 of not so many.

Switching to an older fight that I figured would have more data, like Kephess in EC, I was surprised to find even fewer submissions! 16M HM one again had only 18 entries in its Top 50, only four of which were even over 1000 DPS (the top was 1124 DPS, entries 9 - 18 had less than 600 DPS, and the 18th was a whopping 81 DPS). 8M was not much better: top parse was 1455 DPS, only entries 1 - 20 were over 1000 DPS, and No. 50 was 419 DPS). Clearly, we're not looking at the cream of the crop here.

So where can the cream of the crop be found? I headed on over to askmrrobot in hopes of finding it. Instead, I found more sparsely filled lists. There are zero (0) parses uploaded for 16M HM TFB. On 8M, the first 25 entries for Writhing Horror range from 1866 DPS (about 600 lower than our top parse on that fight from torparse) down to 1590 DPS. On EC's Kephess, more of the same huge variation between the top spot and the 25th spot.

TL;DR please don't go taking things as given that you have either heard from someone else, seen yourself through rose-colored lenses, or are flat-out lying about. More importantly, don't shove them in other peoples' faces to make them feel stupid for holding the opinions you do, like you have some scientific foundation upon which you're basing your views and they are just idiots. In my opinion, the jury is still out on just how far apart the DPS specs are. We really don't know. Anyone pointing to these parse dumps as the be-all, end-all is doing so with an agenda.
Again, everyone has an opinion here. Only one group has shown evidence to back up theirs. The opinion that "All classes are just doing fine and dandy and needs to LRN2PLY" has no evidence what so ever to back theirs. So since you have nothing (not even a handful...not even a single raid) to back up your claim, you would rather put down the evidence that others have shown.

So how many raids will have to be submitted for you to consider the evidence as substantial? 50? 75? 85? 100? According to the Scientific Method, all you need to do in order to provide legitimate evidence, is to provide an experiment (IE all the raids that have been submitted, which has been far more than enough) that has the same conclusion each time. Even scientifically speaking, the OP has provided you with far more evidence than should be required to make a point without any kind of rebuttal that provides zero evidence of their own...more less repeatable evidence.
Republic: Krulex (Shadow) Kòn (Guardian) Krùll (Sentinel) Wanatrime (Vanguard)
Imperial: Wraiven (Assassin) Krullous (Marauder) Krawl (Jugg) Xiõn (Jugg)
♠♠♠ The Soulstalker Legacy ♠♠♠
-FIGHT-

Wraiven's Avatar


Wraiven
10.29.2012 , 07:17 PM | #192
Quote: Originally Posted by Huobes View Post
I'm not seeing how you can search by advanced class and filter it by encounter. Searching for operative, it returns a list of 1167 parses...no way i'm going through that to find one from Writhing Horror. Plus, we can be fairly sure that most of them were healers..
Oh? Most of them and you can be quite certain were healers? Hmmm...I wonder why? Probably because the other Scoundrels and Deception Assassins are not wanted? Just a hypothesis.
Republic: Krulex (Shadow) Kòn (Guardian) Krùll (Sentinel) Wanatrime (Vanguard)
Imperial: Wraiven (Assassin) Krullous (Marauder) Krawl (Jugg) Xiõn (Jugg)
♠♠♠ The Soulstalker Legacy ♠♠♠
-FIGHT-

Huobes's Avatar


Huobes
10.29.2012 , 07:48 PM | #193
Listen, I'm not disputing that DPS-specced scoundrels/ops are something you rarely see in progression raiding. You don't need empirical evidence to tell you that, observation is enough in this case. But using these incomplete parse lists to make the argument that the specs are unquestionably not within 5% of one another is just not tenable.

We clearly have a lack of scoundrel/op parses to look at because the player base has already done its own work in rooting them out. How do we know that this bias didn't arise from a difference less than 5%? We've arbitrarily labeled 5% as acceptable because that was the developers' stated goal, but how do we know that we haven't already rejected that threshold, without realizing it?

Returning to the original observation that the sniper with that top parse only did 1385 damage to the actual boss -- do you think a campaign-geared operative couldn't pull that same number? I think they could. They might be limited a little trying to move between the boss's positions into melee range without a gap closer like marauders have, but I'm pretty sure there's a skill in one of their trees that ups movement speed after using debilitate. They could do this each time, just before the boss moves. Not saying it would be easy, and it would certainly take a great deal of attention and resourcefulness, but isn't that the fun part of learning fights? Of course, ops get orbital strike too and could use it just as devastatingly on those adds (not that that's relevant in meeting that 1385 DPS, just saying).

Anyway, I just worry that the player base might be making uninformed decisions -- like rejecting certain classes/specs and not even giving them an opportunity to see how certain encounters and mechanics might play to their strengths -- that limit everyone's enjoyment of the game. The tendency is to look at the devs and level the blame at them for not meeting a stated goal, but maybe we've already wasted the opportunity to see if we've met that goal.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.29.2012 , 08:48 PM | #194
The ranked lists for some fights are bugged. Others are not. You can tell enough looking at them to see some trends. I also went in and just searched by advanced class and then looked for parses from ops and found some trends on my own. Not surprisingly, operatives and scoundrels don't stack up well. Feel free to dismiss this too because... chair.

SoonerJBD's Avatar


SoonerJBD
10.29.2012 , 09:09 PM | #195
Quote: Originally Posted by Huobes View Post
Returning to the original observation that the sniper with that top parse only did 1385 damage to the actual boss -- do you think a campaign-geared operative couldn't pull that same number? I think they could.
The sniper did that damage on the boss while not even DPSing the boss for long periods while DPSing the adds and jealous male. I don't think there is any way an operative is going to pull nearly 1400 DPS on a boss while also switching targets and going long periods attacking other targets.

Certain fights do have an AOE element. Kephess in EC has the trandoshan phase for example. Unfortunately, the EC Kephess ranked list is bugged. Let's look at some others that aren't.

Looking at 8-man HM parses for Toth and Zorn. Top 10? Two snipers, one gunslinger, two maruaders, two sentinels, a merc, a powertech and an assassin.

HM Col. Vorgath? A sniper, a gunslinger, a marauder, two sentinels, two powertechs, a vanguard a commando and a sorc.

Top 10 for Karagga HM/Nim, which does have a slight AOE phase with mouse droids? Four marauders, two snipers, a gunslinger, a merc, a vanguard and a powertech.

Top 10 for HM/Nim Jarg and Sorno? Three snipers, two marauders, a sentinel, a vanguard, a powertech a sage and a sorc (this is the best boss fight for madness/balance sages/sorcs, my Sage is on this ranked list).

So yeah, mechanics show some fights are better for certain classes. But we see clear trends. Half of the top 10 for these fights come from two mirrored advanced classes (Marauders/Sentinels and Snipers/Gunslingers). Most of the rest come from two more. (Vanguards/Powertechs and Mercs/Commandos). Out of 40 spots, there is one assassin and four sorcs/sages, half of which come from the best fight for that class from a mechanics standpoint. No operatives, no scoundrels.

It's not just one kind of fight. In all kinds of fights with all kinds of mechanics, snipers/gunslingers and maruaders/sentinels dominate the ranked lists. If you bother to look up the classes yourself and check random parses from each, you'll find the same disparity. That's what I did.

The fact that this data backs up what we know from the sims and what most of us are seeing in Mox every time we raid starts to show pretty clear trends.

MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
10.29.2012 , 09:12 PM | #196
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
No.

It's a numbers game entirely. The only time its possible to carry someone 20% behind is if your other 3 (assuming 8 man for this) are doing enough DPS to beat the enrage timers. If they aren't then it's physically not possible to defeat the content.
The same exact argument works with 5% difference. Yes, it is a number game and it works for ALL numbers as long as the difference is not equal to zero.

BindoDidIt's Avatar


BindoDidIt
10.29.2012 , 09:14 PM | #197
Walls of text.

Walls of text.

Blah. Blah. Blah.

So what AC should I play to top charts?
Jedi Covenant, The <Damaris> Legacy
Arrick-Guardian (50) / Barrus-Powertech (50) / Brevus-Commando (33)
Krystah-Sniper (50) / Morzar-Marauder (50) / Renik-Scoundrel (33)
Sylysa-Shadow (50) / Valery-Sorceror (33)

Marak's Avatar


Marak
10.29.2012 , 09:23 PM | #198
Quote: Originally Posted by MariaD View Post
The same exact argument works with 5% difference. Yes, it is a number game and it works for ALL numbers as long as the difference is not equal to zero.
A 5% difference is a small enough window to be accounted for by RNG or other small variances.

95% of 1500 = 1425
80% of 1500 = 1200

Plugging those numbers into my previous example yields drastically different raid results.
Cag - Juggernaut | V'ae - Sorcerer | V'ay - Mercenary
<The Jyse Legacy (50)> | Jedi Covenant
Aenik - Assassin | Vhay - Operative | K'rie - Sniper | Vhae - Marauder

MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
10.29.2012 , 09:25 PM | #199
Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
I think this point is off-topic. The Devs are the ones who have set the goal at within 5%. They apparently think that is a reasonable range for people to feel like they are competitive and not being carried.
If you define the topic as, "The devs said 5% is their goal, it isn't so, why?" - then yes, my message is off-topic. But I don't find that topic very interesting. I am interested in the following topic: "What spread of DPS is viable for raiding, and who decides it, and how?"

I choose to interpret this thread as (partially) a discussion of my topic. There are several people here who also seem interested in this issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
Whether you think guilds will take people anyway isn't the issue. The issue is that Bioware's own class balance targets are being missed by a mile and they haven't even talked about addressing that issue.
I hope I clarified now for you that this thread has several different issues (or aspects) going. You can choose to focus on those that interest you, like what devs said, and I can choose to focus on those that interest me, like guild decision-making around the math of dps.

Quote: Originally Posted by RDeanOU View Post
I think the OP's questions are fair. Why have the class imbalances not been addressed in any of the major content patches we've seen? Has the 5% target been abandoned? If not, are there any plans to address these issues? If so, when? Those are all valid questions that the community deserves some answers on.
I think these are excellent questions as well, and I would like to see them addressed.

MariaD's Avatar


MariaD
10.29.2012 , 09:29 PM | #200
Quote: Originally Posted by Marak View Post
Plugging those numbers into my previous example yields drastically different raid results.
Marak, would you like me to make an example where 5% difference leads to a wipe?

The question of validity of difference (RNG) is very interesting. How do you know 5% is within it and 10% outside?

Do you understand my point that ANY difference can be called "carrying" since some people do more DPS than others? And that it's a human decision as to where the differences become "carrying"?
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