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BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
BW, do you ever plan on addressing DPS Mercs/Commandos PvP-wise?
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Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
10.28.2012 , 06:53 PM | #1
Admittedly, I haven't touched my Commando since late January, due to the fact that I could see the train wreck that was coming later on. Once people figured out how to play their classes well, especially melee, it was apparent that DPS mercs/commandos would be at the bottom of the food chain.

Alas, I was vindicated, and at the present time DPS Mercs/Commandos are still in a bad place in PvP in the 50s bracket. Sure, they can do well in the 10-49 bracket, but that's irrelevant. The real balance should be in respect to the 50s bracket, and the fact is, Mercs/Commandos are severely under performing. They can do well when mostly ignored and allowed to free-cast, but in reality, this is almost never the case unless the opponent you're facing is awful. Any PvP'er worth his salt knows healers are the priority target, closely followed by Mercs/Commandos since they're basically free kills when under pressure. Whenever I log onto my Jugg/Sentinel/Shadow/Vanguard, I always consider Mercs/Commandos free kills, no matter how good the other player is. Some of them can put up a halfway decent fight at times, but even at their best, they can't get me below 40-50% health. It's a sad state of affairs for them.

So my question is, when is BW going to address the class? I think most can agree with me that it's in a bad spot. There's plenty of other threads regarding the issue, like this one: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=541411

That thread has hundreds of posts, some of them are pure whines, but many of them are filled with genuinely good ideas to improve the class. Yet, there hasn't been a single post from BW in response to the issue. Surely BW can throw the Mercs/Commandos in that thread a bone? If I were to post about the Coin Shop, I'd get a yellow post in an instant. Yet, this thread has hundreds of posts, but not even one response. What's the deal BW?

Merc/Commando damage is, for the most part, in a good place. Damage isn't really the issue. The problem with Mercs/Commandos is their extremely lacking utility/escape abilities. They have no disengage, they have no sprint, they only have 1 knockback, a root that only works in melee range (why?), a mezz (with cast time) on a 1 min CD and a 10m (why?) stun. Mercs/Commandos offer nothing that other classes don't also have, and other classes can do their job better. You don't see DPS Mercs/Commandos in rated warzones, why is that? It's because the other classes offer much more utility and survivability, and overall they do their jobs better.

In my opinion, Mercs/Commandos would have a lot less to complain about if they had some additional utility skills. If you parse that thread I linked, I'm sure you could find some gems that wouldn't overpower the class at all. For example, what if Mercs/Commandos gained 3-4 seconds of increased movement speed after using their knockback? What if their knockback also removed any snares they had on themselves? Why can't the root on stockstrike/rocket punch simply be added on to the knockback component it once had? What if unload/full auto was uninterruptible, like Tanksins' telekinetic throw/lightning and Warriors/Knights' ravage/master strike? What if they had a disengage/retreat that would send them back 20-30 meters on use with a cooldown? What if they had some type of sprint likes inquisitors/consulars? These kind of ideas are golden and would help the class immensely.

Please BW, I don't play my Commando anymore, but help these guys out and give them some love. I'm starting to feel bad every time I kill them in a warzone, it's just not fair. The class is in need of a much needed boost.

P.S. The interrupt you gave them should've been there at release.

Edit: Here's a list of good ideas that have been brought up in this thread and others, so that Devs could see them more easily:

Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
- Unload made uninterruptable for Arsenal. tie it to the Barrage proc effect
- A talent box in the Pyrotech tree to make Power Shot instant cast.
- CGC snare returned to 50%
- 4s stun returned to 30m
- Burst run ability, think a cross between Hydraulic Overrides and Force Speed (for the entrie Merc AC)
- Arsenal needs a better slow. Increase duration of Unload slow talent box, increase Jet Boost slow duration through related talent box in that tree.
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
A sprint, like consulars/inquisitors.

A disengage/retreat that could send us flying away to an area we target 20-30 meters away.

Rocketpunch with both the knockback and the root, and make it native to the class, not just the arsenal tree.

Make unload unable to be interrupted, like ravage/master strike.

A speed increase and/or snare removal when you use your knockback. Preferably both.

Reactive shield making all of our abilities unable to be interrupted for the duration.

A talent that would give us the ability to proc a free and instant powershot, similar to the proc-style for a renewed Rail Shot for PTs.

Some sort of missile attack to AoE root/snare targets, or an ability that let's you disengage and roots/snares those who were at your previous position.
Quote: Originally Posted by Henu View Post
Rocket punch will increase speed of the player for 4secs by 30%. - i find after a rocket punch 4 seconds isnt a enough time to move back and get a cast shot off, with a speed boost we should be able to do this.
Quote: Originally Posted by cashogy View Post
Again, this one change would solve the majority of Mercs problems:

- Muzzle Fluting changed from .5s cast reduction on Tracer Missile/Power Shot to 2s cast reduction (making them instant)
- Tracer Missile damage reduced by 20%, Power Shot damage reduced by 10%
- Heatseeker Missile damage increased by 20%, Thermal Detonator increased by 10%

Bam, the ability to maintain damage output while mobile. Reducing damage on Tracer Missile/Power Shot is necessary, but that damage is accounted for by transfering it to Heatseeker Missile/Thermal Detonator in order to keep Merc damage output where it is right now (which is a pretty good place).
Quote: Originally Posted by TyrellJonez View Post
How about Unload ROOTS the target for the duration of the cast instead of slow? Mighty useful for the damned leapers.
Quote: Originally Posted by DrIzzt-DoUrden View Post
The new Power Barrier
Power Barrier
Power Shot and Tracer Missile have a [50 / 100]% chance to generate a Power Barrier that reduces damage taken by 1% for 15 seconds. Stacks up to 5 times. Additionally, At 5 stacks you're immune to interrupts for the duration.
The new Fusion Missile
Fusion Missile
Instant
Heat: 33
Cooldown: 30s
Range: 30 m
Fires a fusion missile that detonates on contact, dealing 1314 - 1773 kinetic damage to up to 3 targets within 5 meters and searing all targets with radiation burns that deal 1944 additional elemental damage over 6 seconds. Standard and weak targets enter a state of panic from the flames.
The new Muzzle Fluting
Muzzle Fluting
Reduces the activation time of Power Shot, Concussion Missile and Tracer Missile by 0.5 seconds.
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
4. Get rid of our crappy self heal and give us some utility/defensive CD. Gravity Field/Flame Defense that makes us immune to jumps and pulls for 5 seconds, on a decent CD? (60-90 seconds), Maybe Coordination/Light'em-Up! That gives the team a damage boost? Something to make teams want a Commando/Merc.
Quote: Originally Posted by HybridCode View Post
As far as escapes. If you were to add a speed boost after the successful root or have the knockback on top of the root, this issue would probably be resolved. Or maybe even having a "hold the line' ability on a successful root.
Quote: Originally Posted by HybridCode View Post
Stockstrike gives you a "Hold the Line" ability or a sprint. A lot of people want the knockback back. I don't. The reason being is you can't always knockback players. For example, often when I get lept to by a Knight I will perform my concussion charge which will do nothing. So I sit there slowed and get eaten alive. This will give me the ability to move out of melee range. However, the Knight will still have the ability to stun me and stay in melee range. Thus this move is not overpowered, but still helpful.
Quote: Originally Posted by Doomsdaycomes View Post
1. Redisgn Counter-Measures so it is not only an aggro dump, but a defensive tool. I'd either go with some kind of CC/Leap/Pull immunity for 3-4 seconds, or a tech/force immunity for 3-4 seconds. Naturally the CD should be 90 seconds or so. Since we're not talking about high mobility here, it's unlikely you'll see a merc jump the fire pit while immune to tech, and sprint into a goal line.

2. Reserve Power Cell should not only reduce ammo cost, but also provide intterupt immunity to any designated cast. Instead of being a useless "free" cast usually paired with Tech override (so we don't forget we have it), now it's a tool that can turn the tides in a pinch. If there are complaints about healers using it, simply make it a talented add on in the gunnery tree (being the tree that needs it the most.)

3. I can't even remember the name of that crappy self heal we get, but either remove it and replace, or add some kind of benefit onto it. Could be a full out self heal like sorcs got with an added crappy HoT, or I'd prefer some kind of defense boost while it's active.
Quote: Originally Posted by T-Assassin View Post

1. a shield that actually shields damage. similar to marauders or assassin shield.
3. an improved way to apply fire DoT. something similar to PT/Van fire burst/ion pulse that will make rail shot more consistant.
4. increased speed, something similar to hold the line, that will make us helpful utility. node to node defense.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
10.28.2012 , 07:03 PM | #2
As someone having several of the, at last count, over 550 posts in the linked thread, I agree with this completely. Throw us a bone BW. I would almost have preferred you hadn't done anything in 1.4 rather than make the changes you did. Leaving us alone showed you didn't care about us sucking hind teat in PVP. Changing stockstrike knockback to a 4m ranged root showed you just had no clue about the class' real issues in PVP.

At least I can thank you for the interrupt I guess.
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd

goddgundam's Avatar


goddgundam
10.28.2012 , 07:07 PM | #3
Think the message got passed down too 10-49 i get tore up there too
Then i play my marauder and all is well.But they need too do something soon or no one will roll them and they will all be vanguards/powertechs and we all kno there within 5% dps of all other ac's

veyl's Avatar


veyl
10.28.2012 , 07:18 PM | #4
You'll be fixed when Sorc/sages get a defensive CD and mararuder/sentinels get nerfed. ((Anyone that thinks bubble and that "new heal" is enough, please put down your pipes that you're smoking... or at least pass it along ))

Ailie's Avatar


Ailie
10.28.2012 , 07:21 PM | #5
Still rather see that massive green 'Look at me, heals over here!' beam disappear than worry about the DPS side of things...

bahdasz's Avatar


bahdasz
10.28.2012 , 08:13 PM | #6
U-T-I-L-I-T-Y

We don't have any. We have nothing to offer a pvp group, and so you can't even find a group to be in anymore.

FIX !!!!!!

Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.28.2012 , 08:22 PM | #7
I don't see the problem with Merc/Commandos. Ive played a Mercenary since day 1, it was my first 50, it is still my main. I do fine as a dps merc, albeit I am arsenal specced where as most people prefer pyrotech.

If you can get a healer, or a tank to keep you alive you can kill enemy tanks/healers and dpsers very very quickly as an arsenal merc due to the fact that you reduce armor, deal tech dmg and can hit 2-3 attacks before they even know what hit them.

I have also played a pyrotech and I have to say I enjoy it but not as much as my arsenal. And to the lack of U-T-I-L-I-T-Y as stated previously.

You can make combustible gas cylinders slow the enemy for as long as it is applied which means mercs get a permaslow essentially not sure how that isn't considered utility. Let alone they do massive AoE dmg in all specs besides healing.
The Three Topics Better Not Discussed Online:
1)Religion
2)Politics
3)Which Videogames are Better

Dovahbrah's Avatar


Dovahbrah
10.28.2012 , 08:35 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenirath View Post
I don't see the problem with Merc/Commandos. Ive played a Mercenary since day 1, it was my first 50, it is still my main. I do fine as a dps merc, albeit I am arsenal specced where as most people prefer pyrotech.

If you can get a healer, or a tank to keep you alive you can kill enemy tanks/healers and dpsers very very quickly as an arsenal merc due to the fact that you reduce armor, deal tech dmg and can hit 2-3 attacks before they even know what hit them.

I have also played a pyrotech and I have to say I enjoy it but not as much as my arsenal. And to the lack of U-T-I-L-I-T-Y as stated previously.

You can make combustible gas cylinders slow the enemy for as long as it is applied which means mercs get a permaslow essentially not sure how that isn't considered utility. Let alone they do massive AoE dmg in all specs besides healing.
Be honest, do you PvP in a ranked setting?

Sure, if you have a healer, you can tear things up.. but so can every other class. The difference is, other classes can tear things up without a healer. Plus, a rage spec'd Marauder or Jugg will unleash quicker, larger damage than any Merc/Commando could.

A "perma"slow isn't utility. Every other class has a form of slow with relatively low costs, cooldowns and/or in a passive form from talents. Also, massive AoE damage doesn't matter, because anyone who's competent will move out of your AoE as soon as they see the circle on the ground. Again, your class has nothing unique compared to others, and other classes do your job better. Rage juggs/marauders do massive aoe also, and it's instant, + it can occur rather frequently. There's nothing that redeems mercs/commandos at the moment.
Leaf - 50 Commando - The Fatman Notleaf - 50 Juggernaught - POT5
Leafe - 50 Shadow - The Fatman
Leafy - 50 Vanguard - The Fatman
Leafyy - 50 Sentinel - The Fatman

Xenirath's Avatar


Xenirath
10.28.2012 , 08:49 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Dovahbrah View Post
Be honest, do you PvP in a ranked setting?

Sure, if you have a healer, you can tear things up.. but so can every other class. The difference is, other classes can tear things up without a healer. Plus, a rage spec'd Marauder or Jugg will unleash quicker, larger damage than any Merc/Commando could.

A "perma"slow isn't utility. Every other class has a form of slow with relatively low costs, cooldowns and/or in a passive form from talents. Also, massive AoE damage doesn't matter, because anyone who's competent will move out of your AoE as soon as they see the circle on the ground. Again, your class has nothing unique compared to others, and other classes do your job better. Rage juggs/marauders do massive aoe also, and it's instant, + it can occur rather frequently. There's nothing that redeems mercs/commandos at the moment.
I do pvp in a ranked setting, probably not as often as I should admittedly. But mercs are the jack of all trades masters of none. I like those sorts of classes tbh. Most of the "Best dpsers" can not heal at all, and in pvp a dps merc tossing a soft heal or two can really throw off an enemy team to the point they mark you as a healer and leave your healer alone.

Like I said, I don't see a problem but that is just my PoV you are entitled to yours.

I will never advocate against a free buff but I like that I'm one of the few Mercs in pvp anymore, makes me feel special.
The Three Topics Better Not Discussed Online:
1)Religion
2)Politics
3)Which Videogames are Better

ArchangelLBC's Avatar


ArchangelLBC
10.28.2012 , 08:59 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Xenirath View Post
I do pvp in a ranked setting, probably not as often as I should admittedly. But mercs are the jack of all trades masters of none. I like those sorts of classes tbh. Most of the "Best dpsers" can not heal at all, and in pvp a dps merc tossing a soft heal or two can really throw off an enemy team to the point they mark you as a healer and leave your healer alone.

Like I said, I don't see a problem but that is just my PoV you are entitled to yours.

I will never advocate against a free buff but I like that I'm one of the few Mercs in pvp anymore, makes me feel special.
Video or it didn't happen. Sorry but it's so easy to make claims and frankly I think you're a liar or an extrodinary player who is wasted on the class because the class sucks out loud in the DPS role. Sorry if that seems harsh but I see this crap in the PVP forums all the time. Healing in DPS spec is more or less contraindicated from the ammo cost vs low return and that doesn't change the fact that the second you are spotted in arsenal spec any competent player will shut you down completely. Everything in the tree is too tied to Grav Round/Tracer Missile which is too easily shutdown by anyone with an interrupt.

Honestly any of the tank classes play the jack of all trades game way way better than we do. Taunts are useful irregardless of spec and I guarantee you can get more protection on a tank class running a DPS spec than you can heal as a healing class in DPS spec, at the cost of 0 time since taunts aren't even on the GCD. All while topping the DPS charts (Smash Jugg/Pyro PT) or being one of the best 1v1 classes in the game (Hyrbid Shadow).
In update 2.9 the game will simply uninstall itself for you.

-Wnd