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[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > Classes > Sith Inquisitor > Assassin
[PvP Guide] Wakaworld: Your resource for advanced Sith Assassin/Jedi Shadow strategy!

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.28.2012 , 04:42 PM | #11
I'm right you're wrong you haven't even played my spec I've extensively played yours deal with it. Next.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain
...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.28.2012 , 06:14 PM | #12
Unfortunately, Xinika is not just inactive, she quit altogether. Ok, now about the Mad Maul vs Wakajinn argument.

The thing about the MM build, is that it is still a DoT spec, where WJ is a burst spec. MM has more burst than full madness, but that still does not make it a burst spec. The two will play differently from each other, just as full madness plays differently from full deception.

The thing you have to remember is that pvp is not all about 1v1s. So parses of X doing more than Y does not mean as much in pvp as you guys seem to be making it out to be. And also, the problem with DoTs, is that they can be clipped. What if you get your discharge, and your raze set up, and then they die before the DoTs end? Then you have just lost a lot of this "extra dps" that MM may have. I believe that this is what Wakalord may mean by setup. GCD for GCD it may be the same, but those GCDs on MM are weaker, it does not start to pull ahead until all the dots have finished rolling. And so if the target dies before they end, that's wasted dps. Meanwhile WJ is unloading hard hits on them, and if they die, its done, and there's no wasted dps anywhere. And yes, dead is dead, but in this scenario, WJ will have them dead faster than MM, which means you can start capping or whatever sooner.

So in the end, yes in long drawn out fights MM will out dps WJ. The problem is, if that 18 sec discharge DoT has finished, they have had a long time to call inc, for the team to respond, and you probably have another 1-2 guys in your face. Node ninja successfully stopped. And in large group brawls, people will either be dying before all the DoTs finish, or the enemy has good healers, that are not going to be outdpsed by DoTs anyway. Burst is king in pvp. So, after all this, I'm with Wakalord on this one.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.28.2012 , 07:51 PM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by EatenByDistance View Post
I'm right you're wrong you haven't even played my spec I've extensively played yours deal with it. Next.
LOL why didn't you just say that in the beginning, I understand you now.

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.29.2012 , 12:56 PM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by Xethis View Post
LOL why didn't you just say that in the beginning, I understand you now.
If the two of you could act a little older than 5 for a minute, I'd be very interested to hear your response to my earlier post. I'm perfectly willing to accept that MM is superior, if you can give me reasons. So lets go back to civilized discussion here, how do you counter the points I made about MM vs WJ spec?
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.29.2012 , 02:21 PM | #15
Deception based specs have the best burst and situational usage in both 1v1s and small skirmish encounters in every variable warzone situation.

Madness has the best utility and damage over a very sustained period.

Mad Maul tries to have both but fails at both. It really is as simple as that. And even if ideally, in terms of pure damage, it out dps'd Deception based builds over a short period of time, it still wouldn't actually do that because the setup is too long. It has less utility than full Madness as it lacks Creeping Terror root. Instant Whirlwind is good but Low Slash has just as much utility in an organized 8-man team and has a quarter the cooldown. Again, MM tries to get the best of both worlds but is worst at both.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain
...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.

JP_Legatus's Avatar


JP_Legatus
10.29.2012 , 04:59 PM | #16
Madness is bad in pvp for the stated reasons. The setup required and the dots being halfway on dead targets really gimps madness for pvp.

I'm more interested in the logic on death field over VS. VS over thrash with crit buff is pretty much even considering full deception goes into thrashing blades and VS has a higher base damage. Did you actually run the numbers on full against your spec? Shock with all the buffs and a double crit hits harder than full buff maul crit. My shocks have done over 7500 and my maul has never reached 6400 (I'm not min maxed).
So having said that, is death field every 8 seconds minus the extra crit talent better than full buff shock every 6? I suppose the reduced shock cost helps make up for some of the damage loss but it does spread your damage around more evenly when you typically want burst.
In any case I can't wait to try this spec later as it looks about even with deception in damage on paper but you get aoe numbers added and some utility in stopping caps and more internals to hit with.

thefishdude's Avatar


thefishdude
10.29.2012 , 05:20 PM | #17
I kindly disagree with your assessment of the 27/1/13 spec. However, I still appreciate the time you put into making the post. I know a lot of new Sins will find it a huge resource.
Forum Warrior Apprentice

EatenByDistance's Avatar


EatenByDistance
10.29.2012 , 05:28 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by JP_Legatus View Post
Madness is bad in pvp for the stated reasons. The setup required and the dots being halfway on dead targets really gimps madness for pvp.

I'm more interested in the logic on death field over VS. VS over thrash with crit buff is pretty much even considering full deception goes into thrashing blades and VS has a higher base damage. Did you actually run the numbers on full against your spec? Shock with all the buffs and a double crit hits harder than full buff maul crit. My shocks have done over 7500 and my maul has never reached 6400 (I'm not min maxed).
So having said that, is death field every 8 seconds minus the extra crit talent better than full buff shock every 6? I suppose the reduced shock cost helps make up for some of the damage loss but it does spread your damage around more evenly when you typically want burst.
In any case I can't wait to try this spec later as it looks about even with deception in damage on paper but you get aoe numbers added and some utility in stopping caps and more internals to hit with.
People need to realize that pure damage isn't everything. Your Shock still hits hard, you also have Death Field while full Deception lacks the ability entirely. Even if full Deception was more damaging (when you actually run the spec and play it correctly you'll see that it isn't), 0/27/14 offers more utility with a 30m damaging attack and more versatility against certain classes due to Death Field having a long range and internal damage.
Wakalord The Bastion: Hey im mvp
Watch my stream!
Quote: Originally Posted by Xerain
...and the only person who doesn't think so is some B-team assassin DPS who is just dragging his team down by playing the incorrect spec.

Xethis's Avatar


Xethis
10.29.2012 , 06:46 PM | #19
Ill try Rancor, but I doubt anyone will listen or understand me. Not that I feel that everyone is incapable of understanding, more because I feel my communication skills are pretty bad.

First Mad Maul. I really do not understand how I can explain this any clearer than I already have, but I will give it a go. First off Mad Maul is not a dot spec. Yes there are dots but there is basically only one dot that you are applying per target. I think that most people that try this spec, or theorycraft it have preconceived or biased opinions of a dot spec that they cannot get passed. The numbers don't lie, Ive parsed many specs and Mad Maul comes out on top of all of them. Sustained damage, burst damage, opening damage, all of it, no matter what this spec overcomes all the rest. Yes there is a set up to get the burst going, but after 3-4 globals everything is set and your just waiting on the crit train. As far as opening burst, we have all had EW proc off our very first ability, and its sexy. Well almost half the time after I DF and Discharge (my only dot) I already have an EW proc, when I Maul it has a 60% chance to proc Raze. Over half my openings I DF, Dishcarge, Maul and Crush, that is only 4 abilities and that is 8k-15k damage in just a few seconds. Now I am spamming Thrash for more Raze and EW procs. There are many times that I am refreshing my Crush before the dot has even expired, that is burst my friends. My Thrashes are being spammed along side two ticking dots, and a Lightning Charge proc chance at 50%. Even if they are getting heals or support it only takes one more EW or Raze to get them below 30%, and you all know what happens then. There is no spec in the Assassin class that can do this much damage in such a short time.

There are a couple downsides to this spec. Low armor, and its hard to master. You have to track 2 debuffs and a dot on your target as well as watch for two procs of your own, takes quite a bit of practice. The first time I tried this spec I could barely break 1200 dps, after a few days I was consistently hitting 1700+. With this spec you have to master using your Darkswell talent at the best possible times. Sometimes using right after your first Dark Embrace buff expires is not ideal. It is quite challenging to master all the rotations, ability priority and at the same time trying to stay alive and mitigate as much damage as possible. For those of you that find the rotations of Darkness or Deception to be too simple or boring, or you are willing to put in effort for the best possible dps, this spec is for you.

0-27-14, aka Wakajin spec is a very solid pvp spec. I have been using this spec for the last few days and I am in no way disappointed. Yes above I stated that Mad Maul can do better burst and sustained dps, but I was in no way let down by the burst or damage that this spec offers, it definitely gets the job done. In a best case scenario I would open with DF for close to 3k damage, Thrash twice for 2k each, EW is up so Maul for 5k then pop Shock for 3.5k+1.5k then Discharge for another 5k and Assassinate for 4-5k. That is over 25k damage in 7-8 globals! I know what your thinking, "whoa Xethis, this is way better burst than Mad Maul!" The problem is that this virtually never happens. Hours and hours on the dummies I and only seen this happen a couple times. In WZ's the only time that it could of happened was on recruits but they died half way through, and it never happened against geared opponents. The bad thing is when these abilities don't crit, when things go bad your looking at around 10k damage in those same 7 globals. Luckily the chance of getting 0 crits is the same as critting every single time, its a very very low chance. When Recklessness is used you can guarantee criting about 50% of these abilities for 15k-18k damage in the 7 globals. When Recklessness is down your looking at critting a third of the time for 12k-15k for the same 7 globals.

There were several things I really liked about Wakajin spec, the rotations were much simpler, and I felt my toon was much stronger. That 6% extra damage mitigation does not sound like much, but it took my damage mitigation to 32% which is almost the same as using Dark Charge. In conjunction with that Fade's 30% mitigation to aoe damage is very strong in current pvp settings due to the vast amount of Smash, Death Field, Death from Above being utilized. I found I was using Black Out offensively instead of defensively via Mad Maul spec. I did not have to track a dot, Death marks or Unearthed Knowledge. I still watched for EW procs obviously but Induction was very easy to track, I did not even look for the buffs, It was very easy to manage two Thrashes for every one Shock. Even with one stack of Induction I found Shock was easily affordable and never felt that waiting for two stacks was a must. I usually Thrashed twice because Shock was on cd and had to wait anyways.

Wakajin spec felt stonger, crisper and cleaner than Mad Maul. Even though when I crunched the numbers Mad Maul came out on top, when I played Wakajin it was faster paced and just funner. I found that I was able to watch the battlefield much closer. I was cc'n better, I was picking my targets better, I was responding to what my team needed much faster. The reduced concentration on my rotations allowed me to redirect my limited mental focus on other areas of the game.

A side from the utility, rotations, or defense of these specs, Ill show some numbers I parsed with various specs via MoniTOR. I will show what I was getting as sustained dps, and opening/burst dps (12 seconds of Dark Embrace).

Madness was pretty sustained at 1600-1650 dps, the opening burst was barely over 1700 dps.
23-1-17 was sustained at 1200-1250 dps and opening burst barely in the 1300's.
23-15-3 was sustained at 1000-1100 dps and opening burst was 1700-2000 Maul spam ftw.
Mad Maul had sustained dps at 1700-1750 and opening burst was 1800-2100
Wakajin had sustained dps at 1400-1450 and opening burst was 1600-1650 even with Recklessness on Shock and Discharge

All of these parses where done with hours of practice for precise timing of rotations, and 5-10 sessions averaging 3-5min.

Wow, I do go on and on don't I, /sigh

RankorSSGS's Avatar


RankorSSGS
10.29.2012 , 07:40 PM | #20
See, Xethis, now that is exactly the kind of civilized argument post I was looking for, thank you. You brought up a few points that I had not considered , and require more thought from myself, so again, thanks and good work on that.

So again, with the nature of pvp, you still have to take those parses with a grain of salt, but the fact that the numbers are so far in favor of MM even in burst comparisons merit the spec more than I had originally thought. One thing I take an issue with, is your claim that you refresh Crush before it even expires. The Raze tooltip says the effect cannot happen more than once every 7.5 seconds, and Crush is a 6 second DoT, so how exactly are you refreshing it before the previous one expires?

MM will still lose a ton of damage if the DoTs are clipped, enough that I suspect will put it behind WJ. I did not see a response to this in your post, although I may be just missing it. Could you maybe explain that part again?

I think your points about WJ spec are exactly dead on. And that is a big reason why it may be superior, not in terms of straight damage, but because, like you said, it is easier to react and adapt to the battlefield. You yourself said that WJ is cleaner, and makes it easier to pay attention to other things, which is absolutely key in pvp. From the sound of that paragraph, I would say your overall pvp performance was increased in WJ. Also, it being a simpler spec means that the average person will get far more out of it than MM. I know myself, I have a ton of trouble managing all the things that Madness and MM require.

I really appreciate the time you took to write out such a long and thorough post, and I think your communication skills are far better than you give them credit. You also made lots of great arguments in favor of WJ, you did a great job of remaining neutral, which is great, and something I am trying to do as well. I have a lot more to think about and consider. I think that at this point we are fighting over crumbs, I know that both MM and WJ spec are incredibly powerful specs, and that either one is more than viable.
Vesharia, Zannáh, Xeshara Retired due to broken class
Jetii'ka - Combat/Focus Bloodfrenzie - Carnage/Rage
Pot5/Bastion