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PuG Behavior in Flashpoints and Kicking


mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
10.25.2012 , 11:51 AM | #91
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
It is irrelevant if they can use the loot or not, they are still entitled to the roll because they did the work.
Yes, if they need they are entitled... entitled to get booted and entitled to get ignored. No big deal right? It could be when ignore list are shared on guild websites.

I will also say for a fact F2P is going to make sharing ignore list more prevalent not less.

Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
10.25.2012 , 01:18 PM | #92
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Alright, let me take this point in specific.

You are 100% correct. They are absolutely entitled to an equal portion of the loot as they contributed the work.

But this is a very short-sighted look at things, and will actually SLOW your own personal gear progression. This is due to the fact that end-game loot drops (with the exception of Campaign and Dread Guard) are class specific. So when you go into a HM FP with 4 different classes, not only is there a 25% chance to win the roll, it is on top of an additional 25% chance that the drop will be for your class.
<snip>
To sum:
Everyone Needs on everything == Takes longer to gear up
Everyone Greeds on everything but Needs on direct main upgrades == Quicker to gear up

THAT'S why it's better.
Yes, I understand that - but you misunderstood me.
I'm NOT talking about guild ops for Campaign or Dread gear, I'm talking about GROUPFINDER teams.

If I do an ops with my guild or pug with another guild, I will abide by whatever rules are agreed upon and I TRUST that everyone else in that ops also abides by those rules. If I can't trust my own guild, I wouldn't be in it.

But when I get teamed with random people through groupfinder, I don't know them and I certainly don't trust them.
Sorry, I'm not that naive.

Hence, if everyone rolls "need" on every loot, the random generator decides the outcome - fair and equal.
There will be no so-called ninja-looting, no violation of the "social contract".
But yes, you are correct - it will take longer to gear up. That's the price to pay to eliminate loot drama.

Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
Yes, if they need they are entitled... entitled to get booted and entitled to get ignored. No big deal right? It could be when ignore list are shared on guild websites.

I will also say for a fact F2P is going to make sharing ignore list more prevalent not less.
F2P is EXACTLY why I'm proposing this system for groupfinder.
Just like you, I'm sure that F2P will introduce a whole lot of problems when it comes to looting.
My suggestion is simply meant to mitigate that.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
10.25.2012 , 02:42 PM | #93
Have you made any friends in these pugs you have been Needing in? You do understand these pugs are on your team. You should be fighting the other guys and gals, not your team.

I have meet and stayed in contact few from pugs in group finder, because I treat everyone I group with the same. I see no difference between a guild run and a pug run in my behavior. It is a group effort and needing just because you believe you are entitled defeats the entire purpose of playing a MMO.... If you want everything as if you are playing alone, go play a single player game.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.25.2012 , 02:49 PM | #94
Rather than assuming everyone else is untrustworthy, my approach is different. I just run my simple greed on everything (but main spec upgrades) regardless of what others are doing. I don't even wait to see what the others do. Loot comes up, not an upgrade, "Greed".

What's the worst that can happen? I lose a loot to a ninja? Heck, I've even been able to gear up several of my companions in Columi gear gotten from greed rolls.

What's the result my approach? NO DRAMA!

And for what it's worth almost every pug I've been in (and I've done a TON through the group finder on 4 different level 50s) have acted this exact same way, even without prior discussion. Only a handful of times was someone hitting the need button all the time. Two stopped when asked politely and everything went fine after, the others were added my ignore list and life went on.

C'est la vie

Norsalith's Avatar


Norsalith
10.25.2012 , 03:39 PM | #95
I love how people keep mentioning a universal server rule. I myself was not aware of the case until I came across this thread. What does this tell you? That you should not rely on an unspoken "universal rule" to govern loot distributions.

Anyone with standard common sense will roll greed for off-spec, credits, or companions. They will roll need on any item that is an immediate upgrade to what they currently have. This has been the defined 'proper group manners' since the early days of EverQuest in the very least. (For those that remember... FBSS groups.) However not everyone thinks with the same common sense, and with reason SWTOR makes it a little harder to define. Some people may consider companions a 'need' due to how often we use them.

Sure, are companions are only useful to -me-, -myself- and -I-. But what if my mentality puts my companion's equipment and survivability on the same level as my main spec gear? I am not in the wrong for thinking this way and both parties are at fault for the lack of communication and clarification. The thread creator mentioned that s/he noted there were no rules mentioned at the start of the group or at any point. Why did s/he simply not ask if there was a preference?

You will suffer similar problems when you are a pick-up' that gets thrown into a partial guild group. What if they are needing on companion gear and don't even think to consider that their PuG actually needs the gear? Different games generate different methods of acceptable loot practice. DCUO, it is not uncommon to get into a Duo or Alert and have one or two players rolling need on absolutely everything they are allowed to hit the button on. In WoW this practice is accepted at lower levels, but not tolerated very much in the higher level instances.

Even in SWToR we are getting mixed responses. "Big deal, loot is plentiful." "Shame on you, you should know better!." these type of responses only indicates that SWToR has yet to fall into a comfort zone. -slightly sarcastic comment follows- Not to worry though, when the game goes Free to Play I am sure it will shift more towards "take everything you can," for a while.
My opinion being different from yours does not make me a troll. It makes you irrational.

Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
10.25.2012 , 07:15 PM | #96
Quote: Originally Posted by Khevar View Post
Rather than assuming everyone else is untrustworthy, my approach is different. I just run my simple greed on everything (but main spec upgrades) regardless of what others are doing. I don't even wait to see what the others do. Loot comes up, not an upgrade, "Greed".

What's the worst that can happen? I lose a loot to a ninja? Heck, I've even been able to gear up several of my companions in Columi gear gotten from greed rolls.

What's the result my approach? NO DRAMA!
<snip>
Quote: Originally Posted by mikebevo View Post
Have you made any friends in these pugs you have been Needing in? You do understand these pugs are on your team. You should be fighting the other guys and gals, not your team.

I have meet and stayed in contact few from pugs in group finder, because I treat everyone I group with the same. I see no difference between a guild run and a pug run in my behavior. It is a group effort and needing just because you believe you are entitled defeats the entire purpose of playing a MMO.... If you want everything as if you are playing alone, go play a single player game.
Hmm, my personal practice was really not up for discussion - but just to humor you folks:
I practically pass on every single loot in every FP or OPS. I can literally count the loot items I've gotten since December on one hand. All my toons are fully or partially geared through PVP, dailies, bh comms or GTN - same goes for the companions I use. *I*, personally, could care less what loot rules are followed or not.

My idea was simply in response to the numerous complaints (here and in-game) about what was perceived as "ninja looting" in groupfinder teams and the expected increase of such complaints with the imment introduction of F2P.

Obviously, I a) failed to clarify that sufficiently and b) am now convinced that people rather complain than change the system. Kinda like politics - we vote for the same crappy parties every time and then b*tch about the results.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.25.2012 , 09:43 PM | #97
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
...

Obviously, I a) failed to clarify that sufficiently and b) am now convinced that people rather complain than change the system. Kinda like politics - we vote for the same crappy parties every time and then b*tch about the results.
Sigh.

I'm not complaining about the system, the people using it, or even the people abusing it. I'm not only happy with the system as it stands, I've had personal benefit and have seen others benefit. I post on threads like this to encourage a spirit of cooperation rather than one of selfishness. It tends to make pugs more enjoyable.

Plus I suppose your kindergarten comment was a successful troll attempt, as it kinda p****d me off and I had to respond.

Kriido's Avatar


Kriido
10.27.2012 , 01:38 AM | #98
Here's my viewpoint. When I'm on the last story boss and he's kicking my ***, who's at my side? Another player? No...my companion. And given the difficulty of the fight, my comp should be geared just as well as I am. So yeah, I say need for companions. And for those who whine about it, here's a brand new concept for you: you can need for your comps too!

Sigh.

Or here's another thought...the devs add companion-only gear to the flashpoint and op drops(in addition to the regular drops. Basically twice the gear would drop. Half player, half comp).

Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
10.27.2012 , 04:32 AM | #99
Quote: Originally Posted by Kriido View Post
Here's my viewpoint. When I'm on the last story boss and he's kicking my ***, who's at my side? Another player? No...my companion. And given the difficulty of the fight, my comp should be geared just as well as I am. So yeah, I say need for companions. And for those who whine about it, here's a brand new concept for you: you can need for your comps too!
Yeah great. Do that if you like; enjoy being on my ignore list. I've never, ever seen a group turn down someone's request to need for a companion, provided no-one else already needed for their main spec. Literally never. It's just common courtesy.

If you can't do the last story boss without needing better gear on your companion than the regular blue and green drops you get through questing, you either need to learn to play your classes better or to ensure you're not too far below the recommended level. I've killed the final bosses for Consular, Smuggler, Agent and Inquisitor without any help and without over-geared companions. The only one that gave me any difficulty was Consular, and that was because of tricky fight mechanics that had to be learnt, not gear.
Carilie - Scoundrel // Dastelen - Shadow // Dras'yra - Sniper // Elonie - Sorcerer // Undali - Powertech
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