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An in-depth look at: Lightsaber Forms- Makashi

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > STAR WARS Discussion
An in-depth look at: Lightsaber Forms- Makashi

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.17.2012 , 02:17 PM | #31
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
Good thread

I somewhat disagree with the analysis of Makashi vs Soresu (Where I do think that Makashi has a distinct advantage) but seeing as this is an informative thread...... I'm not going to derail it with one of my usual long debates....
Well Makashi vs. Soresu is a real give and take. Makashi users have to be aggressive in order to prevent the Soresu users from dragging out the fight because that is when they are strongest. So being aggressive for Makashi users can make their defenses vulnerable to a skilled master of Soresu.

Dooku is an interesting case as he has knowledge of all seven forms, which gives him a distinct advantage in duels.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

fellblade's Avatar


fellblade
10.17.2012 , 03:45 PM | #32
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well Makashi vs. Soresu is a real give and take. Makashi users have to be aggressive in order to prevent the Soresu users from dragging out the fight because that is when they are strongest. So being aggressive for Makashi users can make their defenses vulnerable to a skilled master of Soresu.

Dooku is an interesting case as he has knowledge of all seven forms, which gives him a distinct advantage in duels.
like any contest there can be a give and take - but to me - it is the Makashi fighters' fight to lose rather that a Soresu fighters' fight to Win (if you get what I mean).....
Makashi can kind of beat Soresu users at their own game - because Makashi also tends to be a Style that can last long in a Fight
Why Soresu is strong in a drag out fight is because other Styles tend to expend a lot of energy in their offence which will wear a user out if they keep hammering against a Soresu Defence with little success......then they get tired and sloppy making them more prone to making costly errors...

The Thing is - Makashi is a very Energy conserving style - full of efficient movements so it doesn't mind a drag out fight - (It is only Worn out by Djem So, because of the Aggressive Nature and Sheer force of the blows and being forced into putting a lot more effort into defending against it)
Soresu is arguably the weakest form Offensively and it's arsenal isn't really Powerful or Sophisticated enough to force the Pace of a fight - therefore vs Makashi a Makashi user will not have to expend much energy against a Soresu user because they will not be pressured into hurrying and can use their energy conserving Movements....
Also Makashi as a whole tends to have a very good defence vs lightsabers so can quite comfortably defend against Soresu.......

Where Makashi has a big advantage over Soresu is that Makashi is the Purest duelling style and is a lot better at spotting or even forcing mistakes from opponents without the need to wear them down.... also the nature of Makashi's strikes make it harder to use purely defensive/weardown tactics against them as they will be able to probe your defences with little effort and not expend the type of energy other styles do - and the fact that all the other styles tend to use more full-blooded sweeping movements/strikes - whereas Makashi will use a lot more subtle feints and wrist redirections and stabs - it makes it harder to use those same Soresu (rather sweeping) defences against it......

So I don't really think either form will really wear the other form out - Soresu relies heavily on this....
Makashi doesn't , and is dangerous at any time during a fight - even if you are fully refreshed or knakkered - because Makashi can take advantage of the smallest of mistakes and even draw them out.....whereas Soresu tends to require that the opponent make rather a large one (pretty Much of their own doing - due to impatience or Exhaustion).

Yes Dooku did have knowledge of the other styles (mainly so he would know how best to fight them) - but if you read his own writings he was very much a Makashi purist and didn't really incorporate other styles into his own fighting - he kind of adapted and pushed Makashi beyond some of its percieved limits....

While I think that Ventress does incorporate some Makashi strikes in her form - I have trouble thinking of her as an example of a Makashi stylist - her fundamental style/tactic/stance/movement are so different to the Core principles of the Makashi style -
to me she looks a bit more Niman/Ataru hybrid based......

The Above is based on various Canon sources and some of my own observations and analysis (so I am not saying that it is Gospel)
Obi wan was Said to be THE master of Soresu and Dooku THE master of Makashi so in some ways their match up still kind of is one of the best sources we have for this debate....
Quote: Originally Posted by Barringer View Post
Tulak Hord is only an unknown because he killed anyone that has ever seen him fight.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.17.2012 , 04:03 PM | #33
Quote: Originally Posted by fellblade View Post
like any contest there can be a give and take - but to me - it is the Makashi fighters' fight to lose rather that a Soresu fighters' fight to Win (if you get what I mean).....
Makashi can kind of beat Soresu users at their own game - because Makashi also tends to be a Style that can last long in a Fight
Why Soresu is strong in a drag out fight is because other Styles tend to expend a lot of energy in their offence which will wear a user out if they keep hammering against a Soresu Defence with little success......then they get tired and sloppy making them more prone to making costly errors...

The Thing is - Makashi is a very Energy conserving style - full of efficient movements so it doesn't mind a drag out fight - (It is only Worn out by Djem So, because of the Aggressive Nature and Sheer force of the blows and being forced into putting a lot more effort into defending against it)
Soresu is arguably the weakest form Offensively and it's arsenal isn't really Powerful or Sophisticated enough to force the Pace of a fight - therefore vs Makashi a Makashi user will not have to expend much energy against a Soresu user because they will not be pressured into hurrying and can use their energy conserving Movements....
Also Makashi as a whole tends to have a very good defence vs lightsabers so can quite comfortably defend against Soresu.......

Where Makashi has a big advantage over Soresu is that Makashi is the Purest duelling style and is a lot better at spotting or even forcing mistakes from opponents without the need to wear them down.... also the nature of Makashi's strikes make it harder to use purely defensive/weardown tactics against them as they will be able to probe your defences with little effort and not expend the type of energy other styles do - and the fact that all the other styles tend to use more full-blooded sweeping movements/strikes - whereas Makashi will use a lot more subtle feints and wrist redirections and stabs - it makes it harder to use those same Soresu (rather sweeping) defences against it......

So I don't really think either form will really wear the other form out - Soresu relies heavily on this....
Makashi doesn't , and is dangerous at any time during a fight - even if you are fully refreshed or knakkered - because Makashi can take advantage of the smallest of mistakes and even draw them out.....whereas Soresu tends to require that the opponent make rather a large one (pretty Much of their own doing - due to impatience or Exhaustion).

Yes Dooku did have knowledge of the other styles (mainly so he would know how best to fight them) - but if you read his own writings he was very much a Makashi purist and didn't really incorporate other styles into his own fighting - he kind of adapted and pushed Makashi beyond some of its percieved limits....

While I think that Ventress does incorporate some Makashi strikes in her form - I have trouble thinking of her as an example of a Makashi stylist - her fundamental style/tactic/stance/movement are so different to the Core principles of the Makashi style -
to me she looks a bit more Niman/Ataru hybrid based......

The Above is based on various Canon sources and some of my own observations and analysis (so I am not saying that it is Gospel)
Obi wan was Said to be THE master of Soresu and Dooku THE master of Makashi so in some ways their match up still kind of is one of the best sources we have for this debate....
I agree with everything you said except for a few things.

Dooku learned all of the forms so that he knew how to best counter them, but he is purely a Makashi duelist. He doesn't really bother with the other forms. And Ventress was a Makashi duelist. The reason she fights similar to an Ataru or Niman duelist is due to her dual-wielding. She uses Makashi aggressively, but its main strength is in finesse.

Anyway, we both agree with each other.

I should note that Soresu would outlast Makashi in a duel, however.

EDIT: ^due to Soresu requiring little energy to maintain a defense against Makashi, as Makashi uses slightly more energy in order to gain the upper hand over Soresu.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

RDeanOU's Avatar


RDeanOU
10.17.2012 , 10:11 PM | #34
Great thread.

The thing people have to remember is that Lightsaber forms aren't like Rock, Paper, Scissors. The forms are tools. They have strengths and weaknesses, but ultimately, the abilities of the Jedi wielding the form are what determine the result of any duel.

Ultimately, the skill of the warrior wielding the weapon is more important than the weapon itself. A true master of Makashi is a formidable opponent. The same is true of a real Soresu, Djem So, or Juyo master.

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.18.2012 , 10:59 AM | #35
Just a suggestion for a future thread, maybe something on the Ones - I'd like to know more about these characters, I get the feeling TCW episode on them wasn't the full story.

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.18.2012 , 11:29 AM | #36
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Just a suggestion for a future thread, maybe something on the Ones - I'd like to know more about these characters, I get the feeling TCW episode on them wasn't the full story.
I have been thinking about doing the Ones, but I'm not so sure about it. There is a much larger story about them that would be interesting, but I really don't know if I would want to do it. Personally, I never really cared for the Mortis arc or the Ones for that matter. Plus I don't personally know enough about them to constitute a thread. Much of the information would come from the Star Wars wiki so there really isn't much of a point. You'd be better off just going on the Wookieepedia since that's where I would get most of my information on the Ones.

It's a good suggestion though.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.18.2012 , 11:43 AM | #37
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
I have been thinking about doing the Ones, but I'm not so sure about it. There is a much larger story about them that would be interesting, but I really don't know if I would want to do it. Personally, I never really cared for the Mortis arc or the Ones for that matter. Plus I don't personally know enough about them to constitute a thread. Much of the information would come from the Star Wars wiki so there really isn't much of a point. You'd be better off just going on the Wookieepedia since that's where I would get most of my information on the Ones.

It's a good suggestion though.
I understand completely, its a difficult subject to pin down.

Other suggestions, maybe a force power of some kind? Superweapon? I'm not really sure - i'm sure you have lots of ideas of your own

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.18.2012 , 11:46 AM | #38
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
I understand completely, its a difficult subject to pin down.

Other suggestions, maybe a force power of some kind? Superweapon? I'm not really sure - i'm sure you have lots of ideas of your own
Well, once Lightsaber forms are done I'll move on Force Powers and then Superweapons. From there, I don't know. If you have a suggestion I'd like to hear it.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus

Beniboybling's Avatar


Beniboybling
10.18.2012 , 12:46 PM | #39
Quote: Originally Posted by Aurbere View Post
Well, once Lightsaber forms are done I'll move on Force Powers and then Superweapons. From there, I don't know. If you have a suggestion I'd like to hear it.
Do what you like, I'm just spewing out ideas

Aurbere's Avatar


Aurbere
10.18.2012 , 12:52 PM | #40
Quote: Originally Posted by Beniboybling View Post
Do what you like, I'm just spewing out ideas
I like to hear suggestions. I don't want this to be something for me. I want people to get involved.
Added Chapter 61 to The Shadows Fall
"Your only hope to survive is to give in to the rage boiling within you, to acknowledge the Dark Side you deny, and tap into it!"--Darth Tyranus