Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

PuG Behavior in Flashpoints and Kicking


Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
10.11.2012 , 06:54 AM | #51
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The issue with this is that global mechanical systems for presumably fair loot distribution are completely different from the socially agreed upon system for fair loot distribution. It's a question of game theory as opposed to cooperative economics. <snip>
Thanks for the reply, I enjoyed reading it.
Obviously, you put a lot of thought into it, even if I cannot agree with your conclusions.

I've been playing MMO's since the first MUD's came online in the late 80's, so I know all about the "loot rules" that players have established. That was a different time, different type of people and the player communities were small and tightly knit.

The problem with all laws that cannot be enforced is that some people will ignore them for their own benefit, leaving those who abide by them short-changed. That creates a lot of grief (as we can see from this thread).
You brought up adultery and that is really a good example - while it is socially frowned upon, many, many people do it anyway. If murder, sexual assault or theft laws were not enforced, you can only imagine what would happen.

So, my point is very simple:
"Loot rules" are not enforcible and hence they are violated on a regular basis (it will only get worse with F2P).
A loot system that would, for example, generate individual loot for each team member would remove the need for any kind of regulation - but unfortunately, we don't have that in SWTOR.

Hence, I suggest that we only use "need" (and "pass" if you don't want the junk) and let the random generator decide the outcome. While not ideal, it is at least fair.

Ms_Sunlight's Avatar


Ms_Sunlight
10.11.2012 , 08:56 AM | #52
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
So, my point is very simple:
"Loot rules" are not enforcible and hence they are violated on a regular basis (it will only get worse with F2P).
A loot system that would, for example, generate individual loot for each team member would remove the need for any kind of regulation - but unfortunately, we don't have that in SWTOR.

Hence, I suggest that we only use "need" (and "pass" if you don't want the junk) and let the random generator decide the outcome. While not ideal, it is at least fair.
You think this works like the Prisoner's Dilemma?

Yes, in one interaction, people can abuse the need / greed system and win. This is a game where one character will typically be played for a long time, though, and there are social consequences to ninja behaviour above and beyond pure loot consequences. For example, being unable to group because you are in ignore lists, being booted from the flashpoint or operation before the end, valuable players leaving the group because of your behaviour leaving you unable to finish the content.

In practice, the current need / greed situation works pretty well. Everyone knows the rules, most of the time people behave decently. Your proposal adds nothing.
Carilie - Scoundrel // Dastelen - Shadow // Dras'yra - Sniper // Elonie - Sorcerer // Undali - Powertech
Server: The Red Eclipse // Guild: The Onyx Guard / The Orbital Guard

Sithcreep's Avatar


Sithcreep
10.11.2012 , 09:51 AM | #53
Quote: Originally Posted by Kitru View Post
The issue with this is that global mechanical systems for presumably fair loot distribution are completely different from the socially agreed upon system for fair loot distribution. It's a question of game theory as opposed to cooperative economics [...]
Definitely sage wisdom, although quite verbose. A way to improve the loot system would be to have a notice accompanying the "need" and "greed" buttons, something like "roll NEED if its an item for your class, you donīt have" and "roll GREED for everything else". Apart from that the current loot system works pretty well, until you get in a pug with master loot, where the gm takes all the valuable items for himself and his buddies. LOL


Quote: Originally Posted by Ms_Sunlight View Post
You think this works like the Prisoner's Dilemma?

Yes, in one interaction, people can abuse the need / greed system and win. This is a game where one character will typically be played for a long time, though, and there are social consequences to ninja behaviour above and beyond pure loot consequences. For example, being unable to group because you are in ignore lists, being booted from the flashpoint or operation before the end, valuable players leaving the group because of your behaviour leaving you unable to finish the content.

In practice, the current need / greed situation works pretty well. Everyone knows the rules, most of the time people behave decently. Your proposal adds nothing.
Iīm amazed how sophisticated this discussion has become. The Prisoners Dilemma is quite interesting, basically a modified version of the Principal-Agent-Theory in microeconomics. I think most people know the rules, they just reject to abide by them. Primarily because most people are extremely selfish and short-sighted.
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkabysslord View Post
Panda ??? who is this Panda U speak of Carl.

Khevar's Avatar


Khevar
10.11.2012 , 10:29 AM | #54
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
...

So, my point is very simple:
"Loot rules" are not enforcible and hence they are violated on a regular basis (it will only get worse with F2P).
A loot system that would, for example, generate individual loot for each team member would remove the need for any kind of regulation - but unfortunately, we don't have that in SWTOR.

Hence, I suggest that we only use "need" (and "pass" if you don't want the junk) and let the random generator decide the outcome. While not ideal, it is at least fair.
Personally, I go into a pug assuming that all of the people I group with are considerate and will not act selfishly. While this doesn't always prove to the be the case, because I treat others this way, I more often than not end up with a group that does, in fact, act cooperatively.

I only ever need on anything that is a direct upgrade to my main class currently in the instance, greed on everything else EXCEPT for gear tokens (Columi/Rakata) that are not for my class -- those I pass on.

I've pugged many many times using the group finder on 9 different alts (4 at level 50). I'd like to think that people who have grouped with me enjoyed the experience and are happy when they see one of my alts pop up again.

On the flip side of this, because gear is so easy to get, I'm never too inconvenienced when someone does act selfishly and needs on something for a companion or alt. It's all a matter of perspective.

Totaltrash's Avatar


Totaltrash
10.11.2012 , 12:57 PM | #55
Quote: Originally Posted by Ms_Sunlight View Post
You think this works like the Prisoner's Dilemma?

Yes, in one interaction, people can abuse the need / greed system and win. This is a game where one character will typically be played for a long time, though, and there are social consequences to ninja behaviour above and beyond pure loot consequences. For example, being unable to group because you are in ignore lists, being booted from the flashpoint or operation before the end, valuable players leaving the group because of your behaviour leaving you unable to finish the content.

In practice, the current need / greed situation works pretty well. Everyone knows the rules, most of the time people behave decently. Your proposal adds nothing.
I agree, in the old days, players who did not abide by the social rules of a game did suffer the consequences. Ninja looters, trolls, cheaters were shunned by the community and (often) kicked from their guilds. Moreover, the stigma would stay with the offender for a long time because everyone remembered his name.
That all worked because:
a) the games were small and the communities were tight and
b) teams/guilds were essential to progress.

SWTOR has about 10000 players on each server. Loot and gear is easy to obtain in various ways. You can certainly level to 50 without ever having to group. And if you really put your mind to it, you can even have an end-game toon without teaming.

Being ignored by a few people is not a very effective deterrent, especially if you are a tank or healer. With 10K players per server, you will still find groups. The stigma of being a ninja looter, exploiter or troll might last a week at best. After that, nobody remembers your name, or what you might have done - one of the drawbacks of internet anonymity. Being kicked from a guild has even less of an effect. Guilds are not essential for progress and you could find a new within minutes if you choose to.

For all practical purposes, social consequences for bad behavior do not exist in SWTOR.

That is why I proposed a simpler, more automated loot system, especially with F2P arriving soon.
Everyone rolls "need" (or passes) and the random generator awards the loot.
Fair, equal and and without drama.

mikebevo's Avatar


mikebevo
10.11.2012 , 03:37 PM | #56
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
That is why I proposed a simpler, more automated loot system, especially with F2P arriving soon. Everyone rolls "need" (or passes) and the random generator awards the loot.
Fair, equal and and without drama.
And without all the tanks and healers as they will be just making guild runs then. I know that would mean I was no longer be healing random groups. What is the point of running randoms now if it isn't to help people gear up, your proposal is they should not get priority for gear.

hages's Avatar


hages
10.12.2012 , 03:40 AM | #57
Quote: Originally Posted by ATAMIANM View Post
Last night I was in a PuG doing HM Boarding Party. No words were exchanged by anyone as the FP started, and we defeated the first boss easily. Everyone was greeding on items, including me When we defeated the second boss, a mod dropped that I needed on, after everyone had greeded. (it was a good mod for my comp). Almost immediately a vote kick came up on me where I was called a ninja. I responded to give me a break, and the initiator said "why should I? Do you have a comp I don't know about?" After a ridiculous question like that I was like fine, I'll quit the group and he responded back fine with all of us and they kicked me. (I actually had transported back to fleet at that point). I put everyone in the PuG on ignore.

So my question is, without anyone defining "rules" up front in a PuG, was I out of line? I suppose I could have asked if anyone minded if I needed on it, but can't think of anything else I could have done.
They had right to kick u. if u need on a mod for a comp without even asking i would have kicked u to. srry but at least ask it or greed and be lucky.
nothings as good as an cold cold beer...and swtor to play drunk

Siorac's Avatar


Siorac
10.12.2012 , 04:05 AM | #58
Quote: Originally Posted by Totaltrash View Post
I agree, in the old days, players who did not abide by the social rules of a game did suffer the consequences. Ninja looters, trolls, cheaters were shunned by the community and (often) kicked from their guilds. Moreover, the stigma would stay with the offender for a long time because everyone remembered his name.
That all worked because:
a) the games were small and the communities were tight and
b) teams/guilds were essential to progress.

SWTOR has about 10000 players on each server. Loot and gear is easy to obtain in various ways. You can certainly level to 50 without ever having to group. And if you really put your mind to it, you can even have an end-game toon without teaming.

Being ignored by a few people is not a very effective deterrent, especially if you are a tank or healer. With 10K players per server, you will still find groups. The stigma of being a ninja looter, exploiter or troll might last a week at best. After that, nobody remembers your name, or what you might have done - one of the drawbacks of internet anonymity. Being kicked from a guild has even less of an effect. Guilds are not essential for progress and you could find a new within minutes if you choose to.

For all practical purposes, social consequences for bad behavior do not exist in SWTOR.

That is why I proposed a simpler, more automated loot system, especially with F2P arriving soon.
Everyone rolls "need" (or passes) and the random generator awards the loot.
Fair, equal and and without drama.
I'm pretty sure you didn't actually think this through. First: the drama will STILL be there if, say, a Sage does NOT pass on a Jedi Knight gear token when there's a JK in the group. I would be disappointed if it happened to me because as Kitru explained so eloquently, I do expect people to adhere to a social contract. If I do not expect that, any form of social activity (and online gaming is a social activity) becomes impossible, except PvPing in real life.

To not have any loot drama in groups, you would have to eliminate rolling and just have a random generator award the loot. Can you imagine the complaints that would cause? Well you don't have to: there's a reason why Bioware quickly abolished that system for story mode Operations. Nobody liked it.

I'd also say that your suggestion might hold some value (well, if we ignore the aforementioned flaw in its logic) IF the majority of players were actually selfish. However, they aren't, this is simply not true. I played on four different European servers by now and the vast majority of players I ever grouped with adhered to the unspoken loot rules. Yes, I encountered ninjas but they were a tiny minority compared to the players who rolled Need for their own class and spec, Greed or Pass for everything else.

I believe Bioware made a much better change that what you suggested, with items being tradeable within the group members for a limited amount of time. This way the actual "ignorants" can be made to see and rectify the error of their ways while the die-hard douchebags can be weeded out, kicked and ignored if necessary.

ATAMIANM's Avatar


ATAMIANM
10.12.2012 , 11:50 AM | #59
As the OP, I am amazed at how long this thread has become!

I have taken from this one main thing:

1. always ask "mind if I need?", even if rules weren't stated up front.

I still find that there are a small percent of PuG members who despite what you say or do will always be irrational and jerks, vote-kicking for dumb or unstated reasons, so when you run into them, put them on ignore and never play with them again.
_________________________________
Axillia- Sith Assassin LVL 57 Asajjia- Sith Marauder LVL 60 Sikhret- Imperial Agent LVL 55 Maarthe- Mercenary LVL 60 Akhenatan Jedi Guardian Lvl 54 ------THE HARBINGER------

Sithcreep's Avatar


Sithcreep
10.12.2012 , 11:54 AM | #60
Quote: Originally Posted by Siorac View Post
... If I do not expect that, any form of social activity (and online gaming is a social activity) becomes impossible, except PvPing in real life...
Please specify
Quote: Originally Posted by Darkabysslord View Post
Panda ??? who is this Panda U speak of Carl.