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Judging the game too harsh


CosmicKat's Avatar


CosmicKat
10.10.2012 , 11:07 AM | #21
Quote: Originally Posted by Andryah View Post
Box sales prove good games sell themselves... at least the point of sale of the box. But even good MMOs don't retain subscriptions anymore.

The player base is nomadic and hops from game to game. Plus, a good number of players are really single player game players who think they buy a box game to beat it and move on to the next one.

That is the point you are ignoring.
The point you often ignore is that MMO's have become single player games. They've become that to chase after the perceived market, that quite obviously, doesn't exist.

Does it make sense to cater to a few hundred thousand people who do exist, and have shown a willingness, even eagerness to remain in a game for years, or does it make sense to cater to an audience of millions that has never been proven to exist in the first place?

Urael's Avatar


Urael
10.10.2012 , 11:29 AM | #22
Quote: Originally Posted by CosmicKat View Post
The point you often ignore is that MMO's have become single player games. They've become that to chase after the perceived market, that quite obviously, doesn't exist.

Does it make sense to cater to a few hundred thousand people who do exist, and have shown a willingness, even eagerness to remain in a game for years, or does it make sense to cater to an audience of millions that has never been proven to exist in the first place?
Indeed.

When the graphics issues get straightened out, this game will be my go to "solo" game. I have WoW for end game (and a couple of old standing guilds hang out with when I am in the mood to Raid).

With the change in the "market" comes a change in the "experience".

Some examples:
  1. Loging into SWTOR (even with seeing other players) is a 'meh' experience at best. There is no "massive feel". I find WoW to "feel" more massive.
  2. Even though SWTOR spans a "galaxy" it still feels "tiny" compared to the ONE planet that WoW occupies. More exploration to be found in WoW than SWTOR.
  3. SWTOR is "safe". Mobs easily avoidable. Pitifully small agro ranges. Other games have more of a sense of "danger" (which increases if you play on other games' PvP servers).
  4. SWTOR has no sense of "wonder". It's get on the next ride in sequence and "zoom zoom". To be honest the old "so what do I do now" and "sense of discovery" of other MMORPGs doesn't exist in SWTOR.

Now I am a "casual" by the "old school" definition of the word. I play A LOT, but don't generally group or do much end game (mainly because I am an explorer, leveler by nature). I am not a "casual" as defined by EA (i.e. Nomad) or a time limited player. SWTOR is fine for me to play min/max, level and "dress up" but not to "explore" or actually "discover something of wonder". TBH, even MoP has A LOT of interesting stuff to see. Sure I complain about LOS and terrain issues in MoP forcing an implied maze to some zones ( due to no flying currently for me) but I still SEE new things each time I log in. There is also a "sense of danger" ( or annoyance depending on the day) of having to be "careful" while I expore. You DON'T have to be causious at all in SWTOR since the Mobs "telegraph" their presense a long ways off. SWTOR is an example of a completely DUMBED DOWN MMORPG experience that caters to the lower end of the mean gamer skill level. Fun? Sure when it works. As "satisfying" an experience as other games? Sadly no. Not for me. SWTOR is like getting a bologna sandwich when you were really having a craving for a bacon rapped and blue cheese encrusted filet mignon.

Apaolo's Avatar


Apaolo
10.10.2012 , 11:40 AM | #23
Quote: Originally Posted by Urael View Post
Indeed.

When the graphics issues get straightened out, this game will be my go to "solo" game. I have WoW for end game (and a couple of old standing guilds hang out with when I am in the mood to Raid).

With the change in the "market" comes a change in the "experience".

Some examples:
  1. Loging into SWTOR (even with seeing other players) is a 'meh' experience at best. There is no "massive feel". I find WoW to "feel" more massive.
  2. Even though SWTOR spans a "galaxy" it still feels "tiny" compared to the ONE planet that WoW occupies. More exploration to be found in WoW than SWTOR.
  3. SWTOR is "safe". Mobs easily avoidable. Pitifully small agro ranges. Other games have more of a sense of "danger" (which increases if you play on other games' PvP servers).
  4. SWTOR has no sense of "wonder". It's get on the next ride in sequence and "zoom zoom". To be honest the old "so what do I do now" and "sense of discovery" of other MMORPGs doesn't exist in SWTOR.

Now I am a "casual" by the "old school" definition of the word. I play A LOT, but don't generally group or do much end game (mainly because I am an explorer, leveler by nature). I am not a "casual" as defined by EA (i.e. Nomad) or a time limited player. SWTOR is fine for me to play min/max, level and "dress up" but not to "explore" or actually "discover something of wonder". TBH, even MoP has A LOT of interesting stuff to see. Sure I complain about LOS and terrain issues in MoP forcing an implied maze to some zones ( due to no flying currently for me) but I still SEE new things each time I log in. There is also a "sense of danger" ( or anoyance depending on the day) of having to be "careful" while I expore. You DON'T have to be causious at all in SWTOR since the Mob "telegraph" their presense a long ways off. SWTOR is an example of a completely DUMBED DOWN MMORPG experience that caters to the lower end of the mean gamer skill level. Fun? Sure when it works. As "satisfying" an experience as other games? Sadly no. Not for me. SWTOR is like getting a bologna sandwich when you were really having a craving for a bacon rapped and blue cheese encrusted filet mignon.
Well written post, and agree with most of it, except the blue cheese (gross sir, just gross).

Yeah, I feel this game is focused-designed for 9 year olds, on rails, with no spontanious encounters at all. I have no desire to leave the Fleet, as Ranked PvP is the only thing I do in this game. Development failed at World PvP, and the PvE in this game is laughable at best. As you said, at some point it may be a game I just log into to play a bit, but with more and more of my friends leaving...meh. My old gamecube is providing more fun atm lol.

mourasantos's Avatar


mourasantos
10.10.2012 , 12:58 PM | #24
OP you should read my post. The Flashpoints section will be right up your alley, I think.
It's linked in my sig.

TUXs's Avatar


TUXs
10.10.2012 , 01:26 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Apaolo View Post
Yeah, I feel this game is focused-designed for 9 year olds, on rails, with no spontanious encounters at all. I have no desire to leave the Fleet, as Ranked PvP is the only thing I do in this game. Development failed at World PvP
Yup! My main toon hasn't 'needed' to leave the fleet for 7 months now. I did the other day for the 1st time in at least a month, to help a guildie.
All warfare is based on deception If his forces are united, separate them If you are far from the enemy, make him believe you are near A leader leads by example not by force
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iamthehoyden's Avatar


iamthehoyden
10.10.2012 , 01:59 PM | #26
The idea that players should be accepting and non-critical of a game is, to be frank, silly. A player does not owe a game loyalty. If a game company doesn't listen to the feedback of its players (either through constructive criticism or the numbers of people unsubbing) then it will fail by not correcting mistakes or growing in a way that gives people good reasons to spend time and money in their game.

Given the choices in MMOs out there, a game must compete here and now with what else is currently available. Is it harsh to compare SWToR 10 months in to 8 year old WoW? Doesn't matter. It's reality.

That doesn't mean that critical judgements or comparisons with mature MMOs are never in SWToR's favor. The game has a crap-ton of potential. The cinematics and conversation choices provide an immersive levelling experience. The ops, especially this latest one, are well crafted and fun. The companions add an interesting piece to the puzzle. And the stories are really really excelllent (hello? Star Wars?).

What it needs, imo, is to provide a seamless playing experience, first of all. That means putting more time and effort into QA and bug squashing. If people have to struggle to play the game, they will find something else to play. Second, it needs to extend its storytelling, as that's the hallmark of the game and the biggest difference between it and the other MMOs on the market. And third, it needs to provide more varied ways to have fun in the game at end-level or else people will get bored and move on.
aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?
---------------
Fan Fiction: My Name is Solomon Crae The Man in the Box

mourasantos's Avatar


mourasantos
10.10.2012 , 02:17 PM | #27
Quote: Originally Posted by iamthehoyden View Post
The idea that players should be accepting and non-critical of a game is, to be frank, silly. A player does not owe a game loyalty. If a game company doesn't listen to the feedback of its players (either through constructive criticism or the numbers of people unsubbing) then it will fail by not correcting mistakes or growing in a way that gives people good reasons to spend time and money in their game.

Given the choices in MMOs out there, a game must compete here and now with what else is currently available. Is it harsh to compare SWToR 10 months in to 8 year old WoW? Doesn't matter. It's reality.

That doesn't mean that critical judgements or comparisons with mature MMOs are never in SWToR's favor. The game has a crap-ton of potential. The cinematics and conversation choices provide an immersive levelling experience. The ops, especially this latest one, are well crafted and fun. The companions add an interesting piece to the puzzle. And the stories are really really excelllent (hello? Star Wars?).

What it needs, imo, is to provide a seamless playing experience, first of all. That means putting more time and effort into QA and bug squashing. If people have to struggle to play the game, they will find something else to play. Second, it needs to extend its storytelling, as that's the hallmark of the game and the biggest difference between it and the other MMOs on the market. And third, it needs to provide more varied ways to have fun in the game at end-level or else people will get bored and move on.
All of this. I would only add that the priority should be making the experience as attractive as possible to first-time users.

Urael's Avatar


Urael
10.10.2012 , 02:19 PM | #28
Quote: Originally Posted by mourasantos View Post
All of this. I would only add that the priority should be making the experience as attractive as possible to first-time users.
Wait isn't that was all the "light sabres", "pew-pew" and Twilek Dancers are for?

Oyranos's Avatar


Oyranos
10.10.2012 , 03:09 PM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
Yup! My main toon hasn't 'needed' to leave the fleet for 7 months now. I did the other day for the 1st time in at least a month, to help a guildie.

Well I am screaming that from day 1... even if its hard to find a 12-13 y old in game.. the game is focusing in very small ages (7-14), so those who search for world adventures of star wars or space (not fun of sw, but space mostly..) they get disappointed.. You just have to stay in the fleet after 50... They need to change that, and do it fast..

Also combining the bugs, it makes it harsh

Bioware should force developers fix it for free, as they over did it.. its not just a few bugs..

ps: I tried EVE online as a trial... so old mmo and so complex!! even today they play up to 50k people and they pay subscription.. but its sooo chaotic, so hard.. 25+ year old for sure.. I just needed to watch 2 hours tutorials to get started! Wow / eve is the 2 oposite poles... . wow is soooo casual and eve is so hardcore.. swtor is after wow from my personal exp.

Xatasha's Avatar


Xatasha
10.10.2012 , 03:19 PM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by TUXs View Post
"Loyalty" is NOT a given for just buying a game! Just because I buy a bad game (Aion, RIFT), doesn't mean I should remain loyal to it. We've had a crap ton of BAD MMOs released the past few years...the "dip" has more to do with crap games than it does "nomadic" individuals.

I think technology of today has produce a group of gamers I call locust players. They get a game and eat thru content like locust then complain about no content then move on to the next game.